Hi I’m new to building speakers so I have a lot to learn….( go easy)
I’ve been lurking and checking out some drivers
Beyma tpl-150/H
Dayton pro Amt
18sound 8nmb420
Ae TD8M
Ae TD10M
Have been catching my eye, I’ve even glanced over the TD12M and Beyma 12p80nd…
Now I guess as Always it’s a set of trade offs with a speaker build
So I want to hit the best middle ground, 12s and even 10s may have a waf problem in my room and also beaming seems a issue
So my gut says 8” maybe the sweet spot, I have td15h+ as stereo subs so it will be a 2way build / 3 way in separate cabinets
Any opinions on the best matching drivers I’ve mentioned or other better options would be appreciated
I’ve been lurking and checking out some drivers
Beyma tpl-150/H
Dayton pro Amt
18sound 8nmb420
Ae TD8M
Ae TD10M
Have been catching my eye, I’ve even glanced over the TD12M and Beyma 12p80nd…
Now I guess as Always it’s a set of trade offs with a speaker build
So I want to hit the best middle ground, 12s and even 10s may have a waf problem in my room and also beaming seems a issue
So my gut says 8” maybe the sweet spot, I have td15h+ as stereo subs so it will be a 2way build / 3 way in separate cabinets
Any opinions on the best matching drivers I’ve mentioned or other better options would be appreciated
Greets!
Sonically, could only guess; otherwise...........
8" is historically the vocals 'sweet spot', so ideally need (mid) bass, high mids/HF for full range, then re Beyma/Dayton, both can be made to work with the 18Sound assuming a ~2 kHz XO's (5) octave upper limit, but the vast majority of multi-way folks design from a differing viewpoint, so YMMV, etc.. (no response/polars for AE)
Ideally we want to limit any driver to ~ (5) octaves, so whatever HF XO point you choose, ideally back it up to minus 2^5 octaves for minimum sub HF XO point.
Sonically, could only guess; otherwise...........
8" is historically the vocals 'sweet spot', so ideally need (mid) bass, high mids/HF for full range, then re Beyma/Dayton, both can be made to work with the 18Sound assuming a ~2 kHz XO's (5) octave upper limit, but the vast majority of multi-way folks design from a differing viewpoint, so YMMV, etc.. (no response/polars for AE)
Ideally we want to limit any driver to ~ (5) octaves, so whatever HF XO point you choose, ideally back it up to minus 2^5 octaves for minimum sub HF XO point.
HNY a thanks for the reply!
Looking on the net 5 octaves below 2k seems to be 63hz ?
That’s fine by me, I’d ideally like to cross out of the vocal range, as one theory suggests that’s a good idea so below 120hz etc
One reason I haven’t gone for the td8m is the low Xmax and John recommended crossing at like 250hz
I’d rather have more of a full range driver so I can experiment around 80hz etc
Any one know a decent crossover point for the 18sound 8” to avoid beaming and break up?
I’ve heard people recommend a octave of above and below the crossover of clean response without breakup
I also read the tpl150 is better at 2k or above
Thanks
GM did not suggest that you use the mid driver for 5 octaves as a rule, better read again.
And some of the questions i did not see yet, are you going active ? or using passive filters, i assume the first.
Secondly you have AE TD15H+ as stereo subs you say, will you place the MF/HF ontop of them?
Important for the choice of mid driver extension as you need to integrate them.
If you want a 8" that reaches low that costs you in efficiency.
And the other TD15 S/H/X have slight resonance in the 4-600 area seen as a dip in the response from the rubber surround.
I know the 15H+ is different as apparent from specs below, but i assume behavior is similar.
Fs: 21.97Hz
Qms: 5.17
Vas: 363.4 L
Cms: .35 mm/N
Mms: 150 g
Rms: 4 kg/S
Xmax: 18 mm(peak)
Xmech: 30 mm(peak)
Sd: 855 sqcm
Vd: 3.08L (p-p)
Qes: .22
Re: 6.5 ohm
Le: .3 mH
Z: 8 ohm
Bl: 25 T/m
Pe: 800W (cont.)
Qts: .21
1WSPL: 94.52 dB
2.83V: 95.42 dB
Crossing them below 300 at least, gets that out of the main passband and was a good recommandation from AE.
Choose your "tweeter" first there is a large difference in price and sensitivity of the 2 AMTS you listed.
If you choose the TPL 150H, you will want a mid to cross with the Horn where directivity matches, it also has 99-102 db sensitivty.
As for the TPL there is litterally hundreds of pages on the forums here on it, there is also plenty of mods one can do to make it perform better on the low end, concerning distortion and it's 1,6k resonance.
The dayton has taller diaphragm, much less weight and 50w power handling 94 D sensitivity for a 4 ohm driver.
If you look for a TPL competitor the latest ProAMTs from Mundorf are also worth of consideration, same price range as the Beyma and seemingly very good performance, might be more difficult to source waveguides , so a 2k xo with a 8" might work there.
https://www.audiohobby.eu/en/mundorf-amt-tweeters/6017-proamt-tweeter-mundorfm23--amt164ur.html
Some third party measurements of the proposed 8" drivers.
The TD8 requires much more attention to the xo then the 8nmb if you want the best performance from it.
If you want to cross around 2 k there is 500hz until the first major breakup mode.
Better used lower then that like the proposed design below, having a 15H below a TD8, where it uses the dip in the driver as a part of the rolloff. Also there is some info to extract from there on the driver itself.
As for other 8" Beyma has quite a large selection, but not all are on the web site, so check fx: usspeaker.com
B&C 8PE21 is a nice 8" mid, but has limited xmax.
8 nmb has very rapidly rising distortion below 100hz as can be seen, it is also suited for a higher xo. And has a long tail starting at 2k (do notice dibirama used 50db scale csd), so both of the drivers are best used in the same range.
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...-sound-8nmb420-8-woofer-8-8-ohm-400-wmax.html
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://vcllabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Acoustic-Elegance-TD8M-Leap.pdf
https://vcllabs.com/vcl-ex24/
This thread on post #22 -#23 shows how to possibly remedy the dip in the TD8M too.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...n-and-acoustic-elegance-drivers.279278/page-2
And some of the questions i did not see yet, are you going active ? or using passive filters, i assume the first.
Secondly you have AE TD15H+ as stereo subs you say, will you place the MF/HF ontop of them?
Important for the choice of mid driver extension as you need to integrate them.
If you want a 8" that reaches low that costs you in efficiency.
And the other TD15 S/H/X have slight resonance in the 4-600 area seen as a dip in the response from the rubber surround.
I know the 15H+ is different as apparent from specs below, but i assume behavior is similar.
Fs: 21.97Hz
Qms: 5.17
Vas: 363.4 L
Cms: .35 mm/N
Mms: 150 g
Rms: 4 kg/S
Xmax: 18 mm(peak)
Xmech: 30 mm(peak)
Sd: 855 sqcm
Vd: 3.08L (p-p)
Qes: .22
Re: 6.5 ohm
Le: .3 mH
Z: 8 ohm
Bl: 25 T/m
Pe: 800W (cont.)
Qts: .21
1WSPL: 94.52 dB
2.83V: 95.42 dB
Crossing them below 300 at least, gets that out of the main passband and was a good recommandation from AE.
Choose your "tweeter" first there is a large difference in price and sensitivity of the 2 AMTS you listed.
If you choose the TPL 150H, you will want a mid to cross with the Horn where directivity matches, it also has 99-102 db sensitivty.
As for the TPL there is litterally hundreds of pages on the forums here on it, there is also plenty of mods one can do to make it perform better on the low end, concerning distortion and it's 1,6k resonance.
The dayton has taller diaphragm, much less weight and 50w power handling 94 D sensitivity for a 4 ohm driver.
If you look for a TPL competitor the latest ProAMTs from Mundorf are also worth of consideration, same price range as the Beyma and seemingly very good performance, might be more difficult to source waveguides , so a 2k xo with a 8" might work there.
https://www.audiohobby.eu/en/mundorf-amt-tweeters/6017-proamt-tweeter-mundorfm23--amt164ur.html
Some third party measurements of the proposed 8" drivers.
The TD8 requires much more attention to the xo then the 8nmb if you want the best performance from it.
If you want to cross around 2 k there is 500hz until the first major breakup mode.
Better used lower then that like the proposed design below, having a 15H below a TD8, where it uses the dip in the driver as a part of the rolloff. Also there is some info to extract from there on the driver itself.
As for other 8" Beyma has quite a large selection, but not all are on the web site, so check fx: usspeaker.com
B&C 8PE21 is a nice 8" mid, but has limited xmax.
8 nmb has very rapidly rising distortion below 100hz as can be seen, it is also suited for a higher xo. And has a long tail starting at 2k (do notice dibirama used 50db scale csd), so both of the drivers are best used in the same range.
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...-sound-8nmb420-8-woofer-8-8-ohm-400-wmax.html
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://vcllabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Acoustic-Elegance-TD8M-Leap.pdf
https://vcllabs.com/vcl-ex24/
This thread on post #22 -#23 shows how to possibly remedy the dip in the TD8M too.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...n-and-acoustic-elegance-drivers.279278/page-2
Thanks so much for replying
Like I say my knowledge is very basic : ) I obviously didn’t understand what GM said….
Yes I will use active crossovers, I’m trying to accomplish this as simple as possible because my knowledge is so small so I almost need a completed design
The reason I wanted I wanted to go for a lower reaching mid is so it acts more like a 2 way I can then cross over to my subs making it a easier integration hopefully
But it’s technically a 3 way how ever you slice it
Yes the mids and highs will sit on top of the stereo subs
The other reason I wanted a wider band from the subs is to use the method suggested by Wayne parham to smooth that transitional area caused by reflections by having as many bass sources as possible
Td8m and mundorf 29 were my original idea as suggested by John at ae
The mundorf are very expensive, the pro version you linked looks similar specs for less money ?
I did want to use the tpl/ mundorf without the wave guide to keep the size as small as possible as the wave guide adds more to the height
Thanks again for everyone’s help
You will find a lot of knowledge and info in the threads on here about the TPL150, just search for Beyma TPL etc. it's also popular on the AV forums. Maybe the safest driver for you to go with is a Beyma, since there is a lot of people with experience on it, and a ton of info easily available.
Looks at the comparsion below in the link, and you can see the newer TPL200 and a Mundorf tested. And the 200 looks exceptionally clean without the waveguide.
Personally i would buy and use it with a waveguide, and do the back chamber mods etc. A larger mid, 10/12" seems to be the ideal (unless you go for a non factory waveguide) giving a 1,2-1,6k xo with a good directivity match.
I'd be more worried of getting a good match with a 8" higher up and matching a tall slender AMT to a cone, there is also the center to center spacing to think of with large AMTs. But that's my own preferences and not what fits everyone's goals.
Getting a mid that goes lower, means you should look for either a larger mid then the 8, or one with more exccursion if you want a lower XO, or eq it on the low end and pay in distortion. You have the freedom of Active so efficiency match is no longer important in the same way. Also added some third party measurements of the TD10m. and a smoothed from linked thread, as it was in the initial post too, it looks to be void of breakup as far up as the 8", just higher q when it first happens, which is easier/less objectionable to correct with a notch or similar.
That Mundorf says U in the designation, and they called it a monitor version of they're all out Proamt line or something in the catalog linked below. It does not have provisions for cooling fans etc like the larger ones.
Same as the U version is less costly then the regular ones. The difference you'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable then me about.
The 29 is Larger, and more expensive indeed about twice, and AE has they're own version of it, also 1db more efficiency, goes a little lower, larger magnet and has the deep back cup design.
I believe the TPL is a safer bet then both.
Some worthwhile threads to read for you:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyma-12p80nd-tpl-150.231551/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/active-tpl-150h-and-12p80nd-v2-project.286060/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/acoustical-notch-filter-for-tpl-150.359480/
https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/build-thread-ae-td10m-beyma-tpl-200h.1510/
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/46273-a-couple-high-end-drivers-tested-data
Catalog with Mundorf amt pro line from 2014?
And a compasion of TPL200 and a Mundorf ProAMT.
https://www.mundorf.com/userdata/filegallery/original/54_mundorf_proaudio_catalog_2014.pdf
https://forums.melaudia.net/attachment.php?aid=18126
The drivers are expensive, take your time researching so you know you get what you want.
Looks at the comparsion below in the link, and you can see the newer TPL200 and a Mundorf tested. And the 200 looks exceptionally clean without the waveguide.
Personally i would buy and use it with a waveguide, and do the back chamber mods etc. A larger mid, 10/12" seems to be the ideal (unless you go for a non factory waveguide) giving a 1,2-1,6k xo with a good directivity match.
I'd be more worried of getting a good match with a 8" higher up and matching a tall slender AMT to a cone, there is also the center to center spacing to think of with large AMTs. But that's my own preferences and not what fits everyone's goals.
Getting a mid that goes lower, means you should look for either a larger mid then the 8, or one with more exccursion if you want a lower XO, or eq it on the low end and pay in distortion. You have the freedom of Active so efficiency match is no longer important in the same way. Also added some third party measurements of the TD10m. and a smoothed from linked thread, as it was in the initial post too, it looks to be void of breakup as far up as the 8", just higher q when it first happens, which is easier/less objectionable to correct with a notch or similar.
That Mundorf says U in the designation, and they called it a monitor version of they're all out Proamt line or something in the catalog linked below. It does not have provisions for cooling fans etc like the larger ones.
Same as the U version is less costly then the regular ones. The difference you'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable then me about.
The 29 is Larger, and more expensive indeed about twice, and AE has they're own version of it, also 1db more efficiency, goes a little lower, larger magnet and has the deep back cup design.
I believe the TPL is a safer bet then both.
Some worthwhile threads to read for you:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyma-12p80nd-tpl-150.231551/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/active-tpl-150h-and-12p80nd-v2-project.286060/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/acoustical-notch-filter-for-tpl-150.359480/
https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/build-thread-ae-td10m-beyma-tpl-200h.1510/
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/46273-a-couple-high-end-drivers-tested-data
Catalog with Mundorf amt pro line from 2014?
And a compasion of TPL200 and a Mundorf ProAMT.
https://www.mundorf.com/userdata/filegallery/original/54_mundorf_proaudio_catalog_2014.pdf
https://forums.melaudia.net/attachment.php?aid=18126
The drivers are expensive, take your time researching so you know you get what you want.
Attachments
Arez thank you so much for the detailed reply!
Yes I was just thinking about the td10m, I think it’s the driver, I was hoping for the td8 to perform similar but in a smaller package but it seems like it doesn’t.
I just wanted to make a smaller speaker then the td10m and the Beyma horn would allow…but maybe I can make that work
It makes sense to go with drivers where there is more info as like you say it will allow me to get more advice
The tpl200 is the same as the the tpl200h minus the horn it seems
Are you suggesting use it with another horn or without a horn ?
Other wise I may as well buy it as the tpl200h version ?
The mods for the tpl200h is another area of research the thread you linked suggests using a 3D printed filter between the horn and driver , I guess I need to contact the op to see if he could send me some
The other question I would have is cab size and if I could go sealed or ported to best blend with the sealed subs I have. ( I guess sealed but I will loose out on low end )