Can you elaborate a bit more on how "well damped" sounds or how you assume it sounds?
You reference 2 drivers which have fundamentally different cone concept, yet that does not correlate with "well damped".
Agreed. In fairness, it looks to me like it's the same room / system (notwithstanding the different rack). Goodness knows what changes to microphone & misc. details there may be though -not least the positioning. And at the end of the day, you can't evaluate drivers in a system context, because much of what you hear is how the designer has used them, and what voicing he's decided to employ with the filter -which I suspect isn't following exactly the same objectives, even though they're both kits developed by Troels. Certainly not without interest, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions from it either.
Of course you’re right, but I guess when you’re an experienced listener you can glean information from these YouTube videos, not the full truth, but something, provided you have an existing reference. There is a clear family resemblance to the revelator based fusion, very similar sound signature to the Troels 7751 that I owned. The CNO4 is a different presentation, but I guess it’s not one aspect at play but a multitude of things. Perhaps I was just misled by the ‘well-damped’ comment that I received. I just wondered if ‘well-damped’ was a criteria that could be specified to get a smoother / richer sound. But certainly, these two speakers sound different.
I do wonder now if a smoother sound, with midrange body, is just a matter good design principles - smooth FR, using drivers in their pass band, good off axis, and potentially just more surface area (larger speaker)… reduces distortion, and more heft because a larger driver couples with the air better.
But there again if I used Scanspeak revelator or Seas Nextel in the same TMM config they’d still sound different. I’m on a wild goose chase me thinks to find founding principles.
I'm unclear on what you really want to know - is it if the Nextel drivers sound smooth, and if they sound smoother than the Magnesium? Based on my having listened to Diapason Astera + Joseph Pulsars, the answer is yes, although this also applies to the respective tweeters used in those (Crescendo also smooth, Millenium not as smooth).
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Yeah, exactly - Diapason Adamantes + Joseph Pulsars, sound smooth (richer midrange as well?)… I was trying to unpick a reason why. I thought this might had been to do with ‘well-damped’ speaker drivers (particularly cone material). But it’s not really clear or one secret recipe by the sounds of it, it might not even be driver related, maybe a number of variables.
That been said, there is consistent feedback that Nextel drivers sound smooth.
One thing is for sure - more mid range sd is a good thing. So I’ll definitely be going for MTM or TMM 2.5way next.
I'm don't think trying to ascribe a set of driver parameters to finding speakers that you want is particularly fruitful.
Are you trying to find a good design for your next speaker?
Are you trying to find a good design for your next speaker?
Thanks - yes thats right, only way is to build and listen at the end of the day. It will either be MTM or TMM 2.5way. Drivers I am considering are SEAS Nextel, revelator (particularity 18w) or Ellipticor. Just trying to back the design decisions with either empirical or subjective references. I would build Ellipticor MTM, but as you can imagine that’s quite a commitment without ever hearing them. However I have it on authority that Ellipticor 18we is an amazing mid (perhaps not as good as a mid-woofer though, revelator is perhaps better at this). However the revelator 18W is by all account close, whereas the Illuminator mid-range I had was more monitor like (not my cup of tea really).
CNO4 still sounds richer - but this might be just the fact that there’s more sd in the midrange.
A lot of my questions are also just related to my quest for knowledge!
Even more telling is the “Burst Decay” a watrerfall with periods instead of time as the 3rd axis. A well controlled driver will have even spacing between the lines.
dave
I had wondered if a step response would give some clues, perhaps the length of the decay
But they seem pretty similar between the aforementioned drivers to be honest
What sort of knowledge? From a conventional high fidelity viewpoint ("monitor like - not my cup of tea"?) a 2 way ellipticor MTM appears absurd given the substantial increase in technical performance available if the same money was spent on a more rational speaker configuration and drivers guided by the laws of physics. Note the appears. Your objectives may be something quite different and a 2 way ellipticor MTM may be close to satisfying them. But I suspect I am not the only one that is a bit baffled and wondering what you are seeking.
Nextel have somehow weak bass, so i would use revelator over nextel in the 2.5 way
Maybe we should back up.
So you had Troels' 7751 and they weren't your cup of tea cause the midrange sounded "too monitor-like". I guess you also mean not rich or smooth enough.
What else have you heard/owned/liked/disliked?
What is the room size and listening distance?
What kind of music do you like and how loud do you play?
Do you use tubes?
Do you use subs? And so on.
I don't think saying your next speaker must be 2.5way or TMM or based on midrange SD or Ellipticor 6 inchers is the right way to narrow down anything.
Maybe Troels' speaker voicing is just not your cup of tea!
Need some more basic info here.
So you had Troels' 7751 and they weren't your cup of tea cause the midrange sounded "too monitor-like". I guess you also mean not rich or smooth enough.
What else have you heard/owned/liked/disliked?
What is the room size and listening distance?
What kind of music do you like and how loud do you play?
Do you use tubes?
Do you use subs? And so on.
I don't think saying your next speaker must be 2.5way or TMM or based on midrange SD or Ellipticor 6 inchers is the right way to narrow down anything.
Maybe Troels' speaker voicing is just not your cup of tea!
Need some more basic info here.
Just an example... the tone is what we notice early. It's a little harder to hear in the vid how the speaker controls the interactions with the cabinet and the room, partly because you can no longer hear the direction they're coming from. If you equalised these speakers to preference, those are what you'd be left with. Things that vary in perception with level and place limits on your ability to hear through them.
Thanks for the support. I had hoped it was a question relating to ‘well-damped’ but obviously sent in the wrong direction. I hadn’t really intended this thread to be a “what should I buy” topic.
“So you had Troels' 7751 and they weren't your cup of tea cause the midrange sounded "too monitor-like". I guess you also mean not rich or smooth enough.” Yes.
I have owned lots of speakers so my question is grounded in some listening experience, and that aims are to improve on the 7751 - revelator is likely to do this, and whilst it might be marginal gains the Ellipticor might be on the table because it’s apparently rich sounding, whilst improving upon the soundstage of the Revelator / Illuminator.
But I suspect marginal gains - Revelator is likely to give me what I want. I’m not hugely detail oriented.
I have owned Linkwitz LX mini, LX521 (both brilliant, but I do not like the need for 6+ channels of amplification or dsp - I want a passive solution). Troels 3WC-15 (amazing mid range, exactly where I want to be, but the box is huge and the soundstage limited), and Illuminator 7751 - literally “Illuminated” it will tell you any weaknesses in your electronics. Monitor like. I had to make serious inroads into my electronics to make it sound good (which it did). Jeff Bagby Helios - tonally spot on the money, lovely speaker, but I like to listen at circa 2m and the drivers didn’t sum well for me.
So my logical conclusion, given my improved electronics, and what I’m pushing for now. MTM or TMM, revelator, Nextel (based on CNO4 soundclip) or Ellipticor.
This guy knows what he’s doing, but he should given 9k worth of drivers
You can hear the tonal differences.
Perhaps these subjective comments will be of use to some.
You've probably already identified this but if you liked the 3WC-15 mids a lot, then the 3WC-10 (which also has a Be tweeter option) and Revelator 851 designs might be up your alley. You could also ask Troels his view. I'm unclear why you found the smaller Helios didn't do as well in your room, though.