Hey,
what do you think of my kick bin design?
Here's my design principles:
Range:
-I'm aiming for 80-200Hz kick bin
Size:
-It's going to sit on top of a XOC's TH18 and I wanted a square front, hence these max dimensions
Driver:
-12NW76 is in budget and seemed like the sturdiest choice. 12ndl76 would have actually give a smoother response but I chose more Bl and Mms.
Response:
-It's not pretty, will the lumpy response affect sound even if I level it with EQ?
-It will be used mostly one per side, but using multiples would also level the response
-I wanted good efficiency in target range, which I think is somewhat achieved here (HR models peaks 50%, lowest 20%)
I would appreciate any feedback in why you think this will / will not work, or how you think it might sound?
what do you think of my kick bin design?
Here's my design principles:
Range:
-I'm aiming for 80-200Hz kick bin
Size:
-It's going to sit on top of a XOC's TH18 and I wanted a square front, hence these max dimensions
Driver:
-12NW76 is in budget and seemed like the sturdiest choice. 12ndl76 would have actually give a smoother response but I chose more Bl and Mms.
Response:
-It's not pretty, will the lumpy response affect sound even if I level it with EQ?
-It will be used mostly one per side, but using multiples would also level the response
-I wanted good efficiency in target range, which I think is somewhat achieved here (HR models peaks 50%, lowest 20%)
I would appreciate any feedback in why you think this will / will not work, or how you think it might sound?
Some pointers:
Your simulation is in 2,0 pi, because the kick is probably placed on the TH118 it's actually nearer 4,0 pi (making things more peaky). Two times 8 Ohm drivers in parallel means Eg is 2 Volt for 1 W/ 1m. The Vtc is rather small for 2 x 12" and Atc rather large, reversed they make more sense to me.
You can address the lowest peak by decreasing the rear chamber volume. If I want more kick in a song, I often apply a small bump (say 1.5 - 3 dB @ 150 Hz, 2.5 oct.) with EQ, so the second peak could be considered pre-applied EQ 😉
Hornresp is known to exaggerate peaks and dips in the frequency response, plus high power levels increase Qes (coil warming), smoothing out the response a bit as well.
Alternative you could build Cubo Kick 15 (similar response) which has been tried and tested with the XoC1 TH118. I remember them saying the TH118 were receiving 1.5 kW each, with the Cubo Kick getting 300 - 500 W to get a balanced sound.
Your simulation is in 2,0 pi, because the kick is probably placed on the TH118 it's actually nearer 4,0 pi (making things more peaky). Two times 8 Ohm drivers in parallel means Eg is 2 Volt for 1 W/ 1m. The Vtc is rather small for 2 x 12" and Atc rather large, reversed they make more sense to me.
You can address the lowest peak by decreasing the rear chamber volume. If I want more kick in a song, I often apply a small bump (say 1.5 - 3 dB @ 150 Hz, 2.5 oct.) with EQ, so the second peak could be considered pre-applied EQ 😉
Hornresp is known to exaggerate peaks and dips in the frequency response, plus high power levels increase Qes (coil warming), smoothing out the response a bit as well.
Alternative you could build Cubo Kick 15 (similar response) which has been tried and tested with the XoC1 TH118. I remember them saying the TH118 were receiving 1.5 kW each, with the Cubo Kick getting 300 - 500 W to get a balanced sound.
Thank you Rademakers for taking the time! I'll try the pointers you gave.
And yeah, Cubo Kick15 was one of the design I had in mind, but wanted to try and make something of my own to learn more. Now that I checked my design I can see there are plenty of ways to make it simpler. The horn could go lower with less compression and the horn/waveguide doesn't seem to benefit from exponential expansion, could be parabolic just as well I think.
How would you describe Cubo sound? I actually built a test box with my design and it sounds very hard and snappy on it's own. There is no warmth to it, like a full range speaker playing the same range has (I made my BR fullrange play 80-150Hz and it sounds wastly different). Is this kind of sound normal for a kick horn speaker or more likely due to bad design? When crossed with a sub the sound is ok, but I imagined it to play differently. Could be new drivers need to break in as well.
Hello,
Evaluate the CLQW design, is a compound design as your but easier to build, benchmark the simulation with your current design using the same driver, it also can have squared front area but it doesn't need to be so deeper. You also have more flexibility because you can use one or dual boxes. Once your current design is dual driver.
https://freeloudspeakerplan.rf.gd/pages/clqw.htm
Evaluate the CLQW design, is a compound design as your but easier to build, benchmark the simulation with your current design using the same driver, it also can have squared front area but it doesn't need to be so deeper. You also have more flexibility because you can use one or dual boxes. Once your current design is dual driver.
https://freeloudspeakerplan.rf.gd/pages/clqw.htm
The Paraflex C2D is also another project with a lot of material available and good results as well
https://freeloudspeakerplan.rf.gd/pages/paraflexc2d.htm
There are some paraflex models too for kick bin, search for Paraflex 2x12" top.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/bassaz/
Check the facebook page from High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Paraflex & Super Planar dev community.
https://freeloudspeakerplan.rf.gd/pages/paraflexc2d.htm
There are some paraflex models too for kick bin, search for Paraflex 2x12" top.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/bassaz/
Check the facebook page from High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Paraflex & Super Planar dev community.
From the owner of the pictured sound system:
After one year we are very happy. We play reggae and dancehall but also hosted techno and EDM, rock jazz and hip hop events and the cubos always behaved well, clean quick dry kick loved by djs, producers playing their tunes and musicians that said they sound like real instruments.
They keep up with the th18 receiving 1.8kw ( inuke 6000 almost clipping) with just 300 watts each, with similar peaks to the 12 inch in the mt121 but higher average power consumption.
So as far as i am concerned it kicks heavy and tight for steppas and techno while remaining musical with more delicate programs like jazz, is not complicated to build and is a light box.
I expect the new driver break in to play a role in that experience, lining the walls of the rear chamber with dampening might also help.
With the 12NW76 you have a high EBP, really low Qes driver, which is more likely to sound 'hard' instead of 'warm'. See the FAQ on speakerplans for more info: https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq6
Full range drivers tend to be medium to high Qes, so they just might be on opposite ends of the spectrum, sounding way different is only natural in that case.
Have you optimized delay settings on the sub, kick and tops? It's definitely where 'the sound is ok' can turn into 'happy with the sound'.
I have very minimal speaker building experience, but it might be worth considering a vertical brace between top and bottom panels at the mouth.
EDIT: Sorry didn't see you'd already built a prototype, in that case you'll already know better than I can whether that's necessary 🙂
EDIT: Sorry didn't see you'd already built a prototype, in that case you'll already know better than I can whether that's necessary 🙂
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