I do not look at Audio Asylum very often but week before last I noticed a post by Ric Schultz concerning using AC to DC inverters along with large batteries to power one's audio system.
Schultz has been around quite awhile and as befits his company Tweak Audio - he is a very tweak oriented fellow. I good fellow with a good pair of ears. My favorite obsessed tweaker, Clark Johnsen, thought highly of Schultz. Only thing I have ever bought from him are those ground loops things back when i was trying to make a Edgarhorn system sound good which turned out to be impossible so who knows if the ground loops could do any good. I do not use them currently.
Schultz posted about his experience and most importantly an obsessed audio friend of his experience with using these inverters to power their system.
Being one who was on the verge of buying a Mutec Ref 10 SE 10mHz clock I thought trying this out first might be a better idea.
All of the stuff arrived on Sunday so I spent the day rewiring my system. I had been using two 2000VA SIGNAL isolation transformers for my power conditioning and nothing else. All of that was removed.
There are two 200Ah 12 volts batteries. I went with AGM since the LiFePo are twice as much and it is not as if weight is a concern in a house. I must say my hamstrings got a good workout lifting these 130 pounds things.
This is the inverter that was recommended and the one that I got: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XXBVW35/ref=twister_B09H263X7F?_encoding=UTF8&th=1
It is quite large. Makes no noises itself or through the speakers. They contain a fan which has not come on. It comes on at much higher power levels which I will not be using.
So I am running my music computer/MUTEC MC3+usb/XILICA Solara/four ZM Singing Bush/one Rythmik subwoofer. I use four of these but the wiring would be cumbersome for all four to be connected. I will connect another one to the inverter - waiting for the wire to make the cable.
With the above connected the screen says it is using 640 watts - much lower than what I expected. No variation with mainly class A amplifiers taking up most of the power. I was surprised how little power the Rythmik's require. Using four means they are not being asked to do much. Maybe when I get the other one connected there might be some modulation of power with big bass notes. Connecting the one only added 20 watts of consumption.
The ground wire from the inverter is connected to a household socket. I am going to install a ground rod for the inverter and this will divorce the system from the powerline completely. Well, except for the two Rythmik woofers in the back of the room. I hesitate to run AC lines that long. Though I will probably do it eventually
I never thought my AC was terrible and it turns out it wasn't but there is a discernable increase in spaciousness - especially front to back - and an improvement in space around instruments. Each has its place yet each shares the space with the others. It is not quite the dramatic improvement as installing the Mutec but of a similar nature.
Something to do if you are concerned about your AC quality,
I have found - so far - (two nights listening - nowhere near enough to know for sure) that the system sounds even better with the batteries in the 11.8 to 12.2 volts range as opposed to full charge. Full charge doesn't last very long - long enough for the Singing Bushes to reach their preferred warm up time.
One thing I was concerned about was a loss of dynamics and this turns out not to be the case at all.
I am happy with he thing and though others might like to give it a try.
Or you can spend $31,500 for the STROMTANK S5000 which is probably a little better - but I suspect not $28,000 dollars better.
Schultz has been around quite awhile and as befits his company Tweak Audio - he is a very tweak oriented fellow. I good fellow with a good pair of ears. My favorite obsessed tweaker, Clark Johnsen, thought highly of Schultz. Only thing I have ever bought from him are those ground loops things back when i was trying to make a Edgarhorn system sound good which turned out to be impossible so who knows if the ground loops could do any good. I do not use them currently.
Schultz posted about his experience and most importantly an obsessed audio friend of his experience with using these inverters to power their system.
Being one who was on the verge of buying a Mutec Ref 10 SE 10mHz clock I thought trying this out first might be a better idea.
All of the stuff arrived on Sunday so I spent the day rewiring my system. I had been using two 2000VA SIGNAL isolation transformers for my power conditioning and nothing else. All of that was removed.
There are two 200Ah 12 volts batteries. I went with AGM since the LiFePo are twice as much and it is not as if weight is a concern in a house. I must say my hamstrings got a good workout lifting these 130 pounds things.
This is the inverter that was recommended and the one that I got: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XXBVW35/ref=twister_B09H263X7F?_encoding=UTF8&th=1
It is quite large. Makes no noises itself or through the speakers. They contain a fan which has not come on. It comes on at much higher power levels which I will not be using.
So I am running my music computer/MUTEC MC3+usb/XILICA Solara/four ZM Singing Bush/one Rythmik subwoofer. I use four of these but the wiring would be cumbersome for all four to be connected. I will connect another one to the inverter - waiting for the wire to make the cable.
With the above connected the screen says it is using 640 watts - much lower than what I expected. No variation with mainly class A amplifiers taking up most of the power. I was surprised how little power the Rythmik's require. Using four means they are not being asked to do much. Maybe when I get the other one connected there might be some modulation of power with big bass notes. Connecting the one only added 20 watts of consumption.
The ground wire from the inverter is connected to a household socket. I am going to install a ground rod for the inverter and this will divorce the system from the powerline completely. Well, except for the two Rythmik woofers in the back of the room. I hesitate to run AC lines that long. Though I will probably do it eventually
I never thought my AC was terrible and it turns out it wasn't but there is a discernable increase in spaciousness - especially front to back - and an improvement in space around instruments. Each has its place yet each shares the space with the others. It is not quite the dramatic improvement as installing the Mutec but of a similar nature.
Something to do if you are concerned about your AC quality,
I have found - so far - (two nights listening - nowhere near enough to know for sure) that the system sounds even better with the batteries in the 11.8 to 12.2 volts range as opposed to full charge. Full charge doesn't last very long - long enough for the Singing Bushes to reach their preferred warm up time.
One thing I was concerned about was a loss of dynamics and this turns out not to be the case at all.
I am happy with he thing and though others might like to give it a try.
Or you can spend $31,500 for the STROMTANK S5000 which is probably a little better - but I suspect not $28,000 dollars better.
Amps run on DC...just connect the battery on the DC side instead of making AC from a battery, which the amp will reduce to rail volts using a step down transformer, rectify and regulate.
IMO a more elegant solution, no noise to worry about.
AND much cheaper than some fancy inverter.
Check out marine and medical inverters, commercially available at sane prices.
Here an ambulance caught fire due to careless charging of the inverter battery.
Loose contact + hydrogen = FIRE!
Lead acid batteries are famous for fumes, bear that in mind when locating them in your dwelling.
IMO a more elegant solution, no noise to worry about.
AND much cheaper than some fancy inverter.
Check out marine and medical inverters, commercially available at sane prices.
Here an ambulance caught fire due to careless charging of the inverter battery.
Loose contact + hydrogen = FIRE!
Lead acid batteries are famous for fumes, bear that in mind when locating them in your dwelling.
I am using sealed AGM batteries - no fumes.
I have components of various supply voltages.
I am not aware of DC transformers that will turn 12 volts into 70 volts.
Are you talking about using multiple Dc to DC converters?
I have components of various supply voltages.
I am not aware of DC transformers that will turn 12 volts into 70 volts.
Are you talking about using multiple Dc to DC converters?
For an audio system powered by totally "floating" power (battery in plastic case), your "ground" should usually be the average of all the electric field in the room. If you are a mile out my back door, naked woods, this would indeed be a dirt rod. In my living room, the "average" is pretty-much the power company, and tying to Green is usually lower hum/buzz than floating and maybe than dirt (I have 1V-4V between dirt and power common due to long rural line; it messes my cable TV).
The usual "MUST!" reason to bond audio chassis (not necessarily signal, tho RCA jacks may force the issue) is so that when a fault inside causes the case to go "hot" it will blow the basement fuse, maybe before anybody dies. With a totally floating prime power, it would take two ground faults to kill somebody. And IME well-made audio gear is less likely to have such faults than rude appliances like clothes-dryers.
I think the poster was over-simplifying. Yes, coming right from a 48V tractor or 96V e-car battery is more elegant, IF the gear is designed for that purpose first. You may have picked your current gear for other virtues. Inverters have a nasty reputation as "buzz boxes", most have been horrible square-like waveforms. I never used one at the $1k price range and there is no reason why it can't be as "clean sine" as a signal generator and a PA amplifier. But OTOH most of the appliances in that ad (heater, oven, A/C, chain-saw!) and most buyers are not too fussy.
If it is working for you, enjoy.
AGM can still vent but if you don't fast-charge, maybe not enough to matter.
Amplifiers do not run straight on mains AC but on rectified and filtered DC.
Instead of that complex kludge you made, I suggest you invest in better filtering, regulating, etc.
Instead of that complex kludge you made, I suggest you invest in better filtering, regulating, etc.
I suspect he does not wish to modify the insides of his gear. He may not have the experience, or tools, may respect the designers, or may wish to preserve resale value.
I'm with you. If it can be better, take it apart and do it another way. But plug-only "upgrades" have an attraction too. (Or even my last fix: pay someone to take the old hulk away and bring me a new one.)
Cool.
Then he can install an LC-LC-LC-LC-LC lowpass filter, with Fc, say, 70Hz, to murder all 60Hz harmonics, between Mains and amplifier Power Transformer.
By definition he´ll have (practically) zero Harmonics AC 60 Hz, a.k.a. "pure AC".
Thanks to a probably large and heavy box sitting nearby, but apparently that´s not a problem.
Just thinking aloud: amplifier PT is made out of copper coils wound around a silicon steel core, non linear by definition (hint: hysteresis curve), and will create some distortion on its own.
So even if primary voltage were 0.00000001% distortion 60 Hz .... secondary voltages would not, by any means.
And Amplifier is fed secondary voltages.
Am I missing something?
Then he can install an LC-LC-LC-LC-LC lowpass filter, with Fc, say, 70Hz, to murder all 60Hz harmonics, between Mains and amplifier Power Transformer.
By definition he´ll have (practically) zero Harmonics AC 60 Hz, a.k.a. "pure AC".
Thanks to a probably large and heavy box sitting nearby, but apparently that´s not a problem.
Just thinking aloud: amplifier PT is made out of copper coils wound around a silicon steel core, non linear by definition (hint: hysteresis curve), and will create some distortion on its own.
So even if primary voltage were 0.00000001% distortion 60 Hz .... secondary voltages would not, by any means.
And Amplifier is fed secondary voltages.
Am I missing something?
My amplifiers use CLC filters instead of the simple C filter ZM specified. Many speculate that adding more filtration here can do as much harm as good. I may have already crossed the line.
Not all of us are blessed with the quality of the Argentine power grid. I am not alone is trying to clean up the power coming into my house - seems there are many companies dedicated to this. My thought is if it is possible to divorce oneself from the power grid that would have to be better than hundreds/thousands of dollars of band-aids.
I do not ever remember anyone suggesting adding LC sections to their power supply filtering to clean up the AC line. One could just as easily end up with a much worse sounding amplifier - line stage - whatever it happened to be. Adding a
higher voltage power transformer and the fact that power supply filters, like loudspeaker crossover filters, have to be carefully designed or you end up with something like mixing too many colors of paint.
I know inverters are known for their horrible qualities and that is why I was intrigued by this. It was recommended by someone I trust and was being used in a very highly resolving system. If there was a noise problem - either on the AC line or acoustically from the box itself none of us would consider it for a second.
Half the fun of posting something like this is to read the comments of those who have never tried the idea but already know from knowledge granted from the highest authority they know, otherwise known as themselves, that it is impossible that such a thing might work. Of course, I am somewhat disappointed that there are only two.
We post here in hopes that someone will actually try what is suggested and hear for themselves and give feedback of their experience. Compared to a STROMTANK, that would do the same job, this is affordable. And this is basically what the STROMTANK is but with bigger batteries. Obviously the STROMTANK has some extra cleverness but the final result is likely not much difference. I think bigger batteries are better than further cleverness.
Improvements are likely to be made using AC filters - like the Fo-Felix in the Group Buy forum which I will add when he puts together another offering.
For those who think this is ridiculous, rest assured, it is and you do not want to do this.
PRR, I am not fast charging the batteries and thanks for your comments about the ground rod. Always a pleasure to read your posts.
Not all of us are blessed with the quality of the Argentine power grid. I am not alone is trying to clean up the power coming into my house - seems there are many companies dedicated to this. My thought is if it is possible to divorce oneself from the power grid that would have to be better than hundreds/thousands of dollars of band-aids.
I do not ever remember anyone suggesting adding LC sections to their power supply filtering to clean up the AC line. One could just as easily end up with a much worse sounding amplifier - line stage - whatever it happened to be. Adding a
higher voltage power transformer and the fact that power supply filters, like loudspeaker crossover filters, have to be carefully designed or you end up with something like mixing too many colors of paint.
I know inverters are known for their horrible qualities and that is why I was intrigued by this. It was recommended by someone I trust and was being used in a very highly resolving system. If there was a noise problem - either on the AC line or acoustically from the box itself none of us would consider it for a second.
Half the fun of posting something like this is to read the comments of those who have never tried the idea but already know from knowledge granted from the highest authority they know, otherwise known as themselves, that it is impossible that such a thing might work. Of course, I am somewhat disappointed that there are only two.
We post here in hopes that someone will actually try what is suggested and hear for themselves and give feedback of their experience. Compared to a STROMTANK, that would do the same job, this is affordable. And this is basically what the STROMTANK is but with bigger batteries. Obviously the STROMTANK has some extra cleverness but the final result is likely not much difference. I think bigger batteries are better than further cleverness.
Improvements are likely to be made using AC filters - like the Fo-Felix in the Group Buy forum which I will add when he puts together another offering.
For those who think this is ridiculous, rest assured, it is and you do not want to do this.
PRR, I am not fast charging the batteries and thanks for your comments about the ground rod. Always a pleasure to read your posts.