Absolutely. That's why I would be okay if the amp builder would buy the boards from the diyAudio Store (that I'm assuming has Nelson Pass' blessing to sell the boards).
Tom
Tom
If I would not have copied designs when I was very young I would not have learned and gained experience at all. The copies I made contained copied items and sometimes design errors as well that I learnt to correct. There was no other way to start with electronics as Internet did not exist. Practically the whole DIY scene then was about copying originals. A very popular one was Quad 405. I am still OK with that as even the builder that sells copies at a profit can't compete with a company that produces devices. I see the guy building amplifiers so impeccable as a form of flattery for the original. Probably when asked this guy would love to assemble the originals.
If there is a wish that nothing can be copied well then unorthodox measures should be taken like making use of specific parts only produced for that design. In the past cast aluminium casings with integrated heatsinks were quite effective preventing copying.
Despite the weak spot for a brand and despite the supposedly good quality of a design, there might just be no interest at all from some. Maybe these people will only get to know the brand/design when they see a version by Joe Henry. Maybe then they will be interested. It also works like that isn't it? Pass designs do not appeal to me, despite him being a nice chap and all. However when the DCB1 project started and the wrinkles were ironed out I was a fan of the design. The copy had the upper hand for me but I checked new designs by Pass regularly which I would not have done otherwise.
Normally I would not buy any DIY device but I would buy from Joe Henry. His creations are better built than most of the DIY versions as seen here. Heck, I wish I could build so tidy! Maybe even envy/jealousy inducing high quality to some.
If there is a wish that nothing can be copied well then unorthodox measures should be taken like making use of specific parts only produced for that design. In the past cast aluminium casings with integrated heatsinks were quite effective preventing copying.
Despite the weak spot for a brand and despite the supposedly good quality of a design, there might just be no interest at all from some. Maybe these people will only get to know the brand/design when they see a version by Joe Henry. Maybe then they will be interested. It also works like that isn't it? Pass designs do not appeal to me, despite him being a nice chap and all. However when the DCB1 project started and the wrinkles were ironed out I was a fan of the design. The copy had the upper hand for me but I checked new designs by Pass regularly which I would not have done otherwise.
Normally I would not buy any DIY device but I would buy from Joe Henry. His creations are better built than most of the DIY versions as seen here. Heck, I wish I could build so tidy! Maybe even envy/jealousy inducing high quality to some.
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+1. If anyone in the EU needs one of my amps built on the continent I'm happy to recommend Joe's work.
Tom
It's always an interesting topic (to me). I posted earlier to (perhaps poorly) add a bit of levity to what otherwise may be a pretty dry subject. It's dry to me, but there do seem to be a number of recurring themes around which seem to invoke passion.
To be clear - I don't have a horse in the race, but I do enjoy this field. I'm also genuinely curious about the opinions of others when it comes to IP. When is it generally felt to be OK to violate laws, when is it not?
I'll close with a few things that might clarify my position on the topic as a whole vs. an individual circumstance, if anyone were to care.
Within the laws of the land(s) within which I am most familiar, it is up to the owner/claimant of any real or perceived intellectual property to establish their claims and to protect it (them). The obligation to protect one's intellectual property may not be well known. The processes to establish whether IP even exists can be arduous in some cases, and relatively a "breeze" in others. In general, my opinion doesn't matter re: the specific situation mentioned in post #1 particularly when there are a number of relevant facts unknown to a great many of us. I personally haven't the foggiest of clues whether or not the seller of those amps can do so legitimately (as I've previously stated). I could just as easily written a mock seller's post with what I would consider relevant information to provide potential buyers with the confidence that they were purchasing an amplifier with the heartfelt approval of any potential IP owner (if one currently exists).
Those that have legitimate claims to intellectual property are free to do with it what they will (within some boundaries). In loose terms, they can give it away, they can sell it, they can license it, or they can make attempts to see to it that no one else may use it. In some (if not all) cases, IP has a lifespan. Whether or not someone is unaware of the existence of relevant IP, the owner's position on their IP, and/or simply chooses to use others' IP without permission brings us to the ethical / moral / practical discussions.
I've seen one exceptional example (Tom) posting their position re: their property. Until or unless we know any official position or status re: someone else's property ... it's all just speculation and maybe fun conversation.
My opinion is - If one is intending to use someone else's IP even for personal use, and the position or status of the IP is unknown. It's best to ask the owner first. If one is to sell a product containing someone else's IP (even in limited quantities), it's best to ask the owner first. If you're selling a product containing someone else's IP, then it would be prudent to state that it was done with permission / under license. Then, there can be no ambiguity. However, if there is no ambiguity, how can we have fun discussions? 😉
I stated openly that I felt something was a bit off about the sale of the amplifier in post #1. My gut could be wrong. It often is.
Once again, cheers to all.
To be clear - I don't have a horse in the race, but I do enjoy this field. I'm also genuinely curious about the opinions of others when it comes to IP. When is it generally felt to be OK to violate laws, when is it not?
I'll close with a few things that might clarify my position on the topic as a whole vs. an individual circumstance, if anyone were to care.
Within the laws of the land(s) within which I am most familiar, it is up to the owner/claimant of any real or perceived intellectual property to establish their claims and to protect it (them). The obligation to protect one's intellectual property may not be well known. The processes to establish whether IP even exists can be arduous in some cases, and relatively a "breeze" in others. In general, my opinion doesn't matter re: the specific situation mentioned in post #1 particularly when there are a number of relevant facts unknown to a great many of us. I personally haven't the foggiest of clues whether or not the seller of those amps can do so legitimately (as I've previously stated). I could just as easily written a mock seller's post with what I would consider relevant information to provide potential buyers with the confidence that they were purchasing an amplifier with the heartfelt approval of any potential IP owner (if one currently exists).
Those that have legitimate claims to intellectual property are free to do with it what they will (within some boundaries). In loose terms, they can give it away, they can sell it, they can license it, or they can make attempts to see to it that no one else may use it. In some (if not all) cases, IP has a lifespan. Whether or not someone is unaware of the existence of relevant IP, the owner's position on their IP, and/or simply chooses to use others' IP without permission brings us to the ethical / moral / practical discussions.
I've seen one exceptional example (Tom) posting their position re: their property. Until or unless we know any official position or status re: someone else's property ... it's all just speculation and maybe fun conversation.
My opinion is - If one is intending to use someone else's IP even for personal use, and the position or status of the IP is unknown. It's best to ask the owner first. If one is to sell a product containing someone else's IP (even in limited quantities), it's best to ask the owner first. If you're selling a product containing someone else's IP, then it would be prudent to state that it was done with permission / under license. Then, there can be no ambiguity. However, if there is no ambiguity, how can we have fun discussions? 😉
I stated openly that I felt something was a bit off about the sale of the amplifier in post #1. My gut could be wrong. It often is.
Once again, cheers to all.
Old Joe has nothing on this guy:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616626759684498746ebaa1!12000027991870924!rec
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616626759684498746ebaa1!12000027991870924!rec
Attachments
Sad thing is that came up as a sponsored ad on audiogon with a "first watt" search
I see it there, too, on a Pass Labs search. Presumably Audiogon does not control the content of those ads.
Did you see the Aleph 1s for sale on Reverb? Tempting! Even though I already have 1.2s.
Did you see the Aleph 1s for sale on Reverb? Tempting! Even though I already have 1.2s.
what's all this "fever" stuff he talks about? I'm assuming it's a translation thing.
Don't know the guy and have nothing against him(?) but he is selling "hand made class A amp" for years so not exactly a DIY setup/run.
Hi Tom,
as a soon to graduate university student studying electrical engineering, who is trying to brute force his way through learning audio design, I would like to say thank you. I do infact want to make some beer money, but more importantly I want to initiate a connection with the community that can always keep me coming back. As I don't have a never ending hole in my pocket to make DIY audio I think it is incredible that I am able to study designs of seasoned professionals and use them as a trampoline to purchase and study/build a greater amount of more complex projects. Stay classy, and thanks for your input, cheers.
It is my perception that many of the designs available here were originally made available specifically and solely for the enjoyment of amateur builders. It is my understanding that they were gifted to enable an amateur to build and experience different designs for their own enjoyment. Many/most even have the copyright symbol on the schematic...
However, it appears (to me) to be `within the spirit of this offer' for a serial amateur hobbyist to build, enjoy and perhaps later sell a project so as to fund future builds, but the primary interest being in the construction and enjoyment of the audio signature for personal pleasure.
If this perception is accurate then it follows that without specific permission, the application of such IP for profit is theft. These examples are advertised with direct reference to the original so as to enhance the marketable value specifically for monetary gain. The serial production is blatant.
It's certainly not ethical behaviour and at minimum one might infer something about the professional etiquette of the vendor.
I don't meant to be a dick about it, but if we don't respect others, how can we expect respect ourselves?
However, it appears (to me) to be `within the spirit of this offer' for a serial amateur hobbyist to build, enjoy and perhaps later sell a project so as to fund future builds, but the primary interest being in the construction and enjoyment of the audio signature for personal pleasure.
If this perception is accurate then it follows that without specific permission, the application of such IP for profit is theft. These examples are advertised with direct reference to the original so as to enhance the marketable value specifically for monetary gain. The serial production is blatant.
It's certainly not ethical behaviour and at minimum one might infer something about the professional etiquette of the vendor.
I don't meant to be a dick about it, but if we don't respect others, how can we expect respect ourselves?