hi,
my first post and hope I will get a few pointers from you guys š
i am having trouble with one of my ESL63 speakers. all panels have been done by one of Australia finest, so no trouble there.
i first suspected the protection board, replaced all crucialsā¦ā¦problem persisted.
problem is a bit tricky to accurately describe: its like a popping discharging sound that is heard at higher dynamic signals.
at this point I did not suspect a panel damage as they were all done a couple of months ago.
Next step was to change over the electronic box (foot) ā¦the healthy speaker sounded still fine, the sick one still sick !
so, it is not a fault in the electronic part.
next I disconnects panel after panel starting with the top one but the fault persisted right down to the last panelā¦..š”
i inspected all panels and was no indication whatsoever of a panel problemā¦..which leaves basically one culprit:
the coil/capacitor boards ?!?
would this be a pausible conclusion ? I have not yet found a single post, reporting trouble or issues with that part of the speaker.
at this stage I could do with all the help I can get.
thank you guysā¦
my first post and hope I will get a few pointers from you guys š
i am having trouble with one of my ESL63 speakers. all panels have been done by one of Australia finest, so no trouble there.
i first suspected the protection board, replaced all crucialsā¦ā¦problem persisted.
problem is a bit tricky to accurately describe: its like a popping discharging sound that is heard at higher dynamic signals.
at this point I did not suspect a panel damage as they were all done a couple of months ago.
Next step was to change over the electronic box (foot) ā¦the healthy speaker sounded still fine, the sick one still sick !
so, it is not a fault in the electronic part.
next I disconnects panel after panel starting with the top one but the fault persisted right down to the last panelā¦..š”
i inspected all panels and was no indication whatsoever of a panel problemā¦..which leaves basically one culprit:
the coil/capacitor boards ?!?
would this be a pausible conclusion ? I have not yet found a single post, reporting trouble or issues with that part of the speaker.
at this stage I could do with all the help I can get.
thank you guysā¦
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Do you have the service manual for the Quad63 handy and have you read it? There are some fails described there.
Then first be shure it is not the feeding signal that is corrupt: Run both speakers A then B at one and the same amplifier channel(s).
For further diagnosis of the speaker, you may try to feed the speaker with a sinewave at different frequencies and amplitudes, or another standard signal, e.g. bandwidth limited pink noise (beware of the crest factor in this case). REW has a fine signal generator module. Using a sinewave, go up to 8Vrms (referring to the service manual). Using these signals, you may try to discrimininate and describe the acoustic anomality a bit more precisely. How is this noise, then? Difficult to describe ... but how is it over time at high inputs? Is it completely random, or is it cyclic, and then at what rate? Is it synchronous with the input signal's amplitude? Rather high-pitched or low-pitched? Popping like what? Does it come from all over the aera, or is it localized?
And have you checked the mechanical assembly? Maybe it is loose at one place, rocking or resonating or so? Once again, try to find out from which part of the aera these sounds come.
Then first be shure it is not the feeding signal that is corrupt: Run both speakers A then B at one and the same amplifier channel(s).
For further diagnosis of the speaker, you may try to feed the speaker with a sinewave at different frequencies and amplitudes, or another standard signal, e.g. bandwidth limited pink noise (beware of the crest factor in this case). REW has a fine signal generator module. Using a sinewave, go up to 8Vrms (referring to the service manual). Using these signals, you may try to discrimininate and describe the acoustic anomality a bit more precisely. How is this noise, then? Difficult to describe ... but how is it over time at high inputs? Is it completely random, or is it cyclic, and then at what rate? Is it synchronous with the input signal's amplitude? Rather high-pitched or low-pitched? Popping like what? Does it come from all over the aera, or is it localized?
And have you checked the mechanical assembly? Maybe it is loose at one place, rocking or resonating or so? Once again, try to find out from which part of the aera these sounds come.
Hello and thank you for your interest and reply.
to your questions:
yes I have a copy of the service manual. Sadly it does not show all upgrades, intoduced by quad over the years.
i read the manual but do not have all the test tools suggested in the manual.
the speaker is currently dismantled. I used a sine wave generator and the ānoiseā seems mor prominent in the 1500-2500 kHz band. I would describe the noise as a popping duscharge noise, almost cyclic.
it first is audible when I switch on the speaker but is silent after, not loaded with any signal though !
i have gone through all soldered connections, checked for continuity and dry joints. The amplifier works perfectly and can be ruled out.
everything was fitted as it should. i just checked the delay circuit for continuity to make sure the copper ring connections are fine - yes they are.
i tried to identify and verify the fitted components on my coil/cap boards against the manualās circuit diagram but there are differences.
i say it again: the panels are in perfect order. The noises most certainly come from the center area, which led me to believe something is fishy on the coil/cap boards.
its a pain to measure as these boards are wax coated. Must be for a reason, but is it absolutely necessary ?
i am about to take out the coil/cap boards and try to check again for suspects.
regards
regnal
to your questions:
yes I have a copy of the service manual. Sadly it does not show all upgrades, intoduced by quad over the years.
i read the manual but do not have all the test tools suggested in the manual.
the speaker is currently dismantled. I used a sine wave generator and the ānoiseā seems mor prominent in the 1500-2500 kHz band. I would describe the noise as a popping duscharge noise, almost cyclic.
it first is audible when I switch on the speaker but is silent after, not loaded with any signal though !
i have gone through all soldered connections, checked for continuity and dry joints. The amplifier works perfectly and can be ruled out.
everything was fitted as it should. i just checked the delay circuit for continuity to make sure the copper ring connections are fine - yes they are.
i tried to identify and verify the fitted components on my coil/cap boards against the manualās circuit diagram but there are differences.
i say it again: the panels are in perfect order. The noises most certainly come from the center area, which led me to believe something is fishy on the coil/cap boards.
its a pain to measure as these boards are wax coated. Must be for a reason, but is it absolutely necessary ?
i am about to take out the coil/cap boards and try to check again for suspects.
regards
regnal
So you have this same noise right at switch on, without any input signal?
And when in stable "ON" condition, is there any other noise, while listening very closely?
In stable "ON" condition, at which minimal input signal level (Vrms) does this noise start to occur?
Where do you end up in the debugging logic schema (Fig. 1 in the service manual)?
And when in stable "ON" condition, is there any other noise, while listening very closely?
In stable "ON" condition, at which minimal input signal level (Vrms) does this noise start to occur?
Where do you end up in the debugging logic schema (Fig. 1 in the service manual)?
I'm confused by your description. You imply that the base was swapped and the problem followed the panels. Then you suggest the issue might be in the delay line (that's in the base where the problem apparently is not given your description, if I'm interpreting properly).
You also say the noise persisted until the last panel, but you do not indicate if you reconnected the upper panels without the bottom one to see if the problem was isolated in that panel.
Do you have a set of tone controls that you can limit the bass going to the speaker and see if it still has discharge? In all the electrostatics I have had the discharge sound is related to the panels. It can be just dust and debris that can cause it bc it allows a discharge path. On mine you could hit the sides of the speaker and dislodge the dirt and it would go away. If it is only at low frequencies and the panels are actually ok you might have to limit lows and add sub.
Just to be clear:
You turn on the speaker and you hear a rhythmic clicking noise that goes away after a while
Once speaker charges up, without amp connected, all is quiet and there is no noise
When you play music through amp, you get an arcing-like pop or snap now and again
Swapping the electronics from one side to another did not change this behaviour
IF this is correct then I think you have ruled out the amp, and all the circuitry in the bases, and you are left with the panels
I think you need to split the panels and see if you can see any arcing, any damage and anything sticking up a bit from the stators that might be causing the arcing (which is what this sounds very like). Start with the middle panels where you heard it most.
Example of something that can cause this - I traced a problem in a set where the the centre holes in mylar were poked through with a soldering iron as they should be. But in the process the builder left a fine strand of melted mylar. On peaks during playback this caused a buzz. You could imagine that something like that could also cause arcing. Also, if a stator is pushed in towards the mylar, you can get arcing on peaks. I saw a stator once that had a little fracture and just a small piece of pcb was pushed inwards a tad. It caused arcing on bigger signals.
You turn on the speaker and you hear a rhythmic clicking noise that goes away after a while
Once speaker charges up, without amp connected, all is quiet and there is no noise
When you play music through amp, you get an arcing-like pop or snap now and again
Swapping the electronics from one side to another did not change this behaviour
IF this is correct then I think you have ruled out the amp, and all the circuitry in the bases, and you are left with the panels
I think you need to split the panels and see if you can see any arcing, any damage and anything sticking up a bit from the stators that might be causing the arcing (which is what this sounds very like). Start with the middle panels where you heard it most.
Example of something that can cause this - I traced a problem in a set where the the centre holes in mylar were poked through with a soldering iron as they should be. But in the process the builder left a fine strand of melted mylar. On peaks during playback this caused a buzz. You could imagine that something like that could also cause arcing. Also, if a stator is pushed in towards the mylar, you can get arcing on peaks. I saw a stator once that had a little fracture and just a small piece of pcb was pushed inwards a tad. It caused arcing on bigger signals.
To repeat the main steps I did when this strange noise appeared on one speaker only:
first I suspected the triac in the protection board, which I rebuilt replacing all major components - no change
with incoming signal I disconnected all panels, starting from the top - the noise was following right down to the bottom panel - the worst I thought was coming from the two center panels.
swapped over the electronic box - healthy speaker still healthy, sick speaker still sick - meaning
the electronic is ok.
Took all panels out and checked stators for particles as well as the diaphragms - all fine.
the only thing I flicked off on one of the diaphragms was a tiny solder plop on its edge ?!?
hard to imagine this would have caused all the trouble.
took out the coil-capacitor boards, tested all components, checked for continuity, reconnected the delay lines.
i am now re-assembling the speaker and see how and if all made an impact.
it makes no sense to suspect bad panels as I mentioned previously - both speaker panels have been redone
by one of Australiaās finest Quad experts who did excellent work for me before - I would not trust anyone else that easily š
i had been asked at which point I left the fault-finding flowchart from the Quad service manual - well, as the problem presented it quite diffuse to me and having checked the electronic it did not make a lot of sense to follow every step, specially when it seemed irrelevant ?!
and yes, someone might suggest to swap over the complete panel array from the healthy speaker - i keep the option in reserve for now.
thank you
i shall report back
first I suspected the triac in the protection board, which I rebuilt replacing all major components - no change
with incoming signal I disconnected all panels, starting from the top - the noise was following right down to the bottom panel - the worst I thought was coming from the two center panels.
swapped over the electronic box - healthy speaker still healthy, sick speaker still sick - meaning
the electronic is ok.
Took all panels out and checked stators for particles as well as the diaphragms - all fine.
the only thing I flicked off on one of the diaphragms was a tiny solder plop on its edge ?!?
hard to imagine this would have caused all the trouble.
took out the coil-capacitor boards, tested all components, checked for continuity, reconnected the delay lines.
i am now re-assembling the speaker and see how and if all made an impact.
it makes no sense to suspect bad panels as I mentioned previously - both speaker panels have been redone
by one of Australiaās finest Quad experts who did excellent work for me before - I would not trust anyone else that easily š
i had been asked at which point I left the fault-finding flowchart from the Quad service manual - well, as the problem presented it quite diffuse to me and having checked the electronic it did not make a lot of sense to follow every step, specially when it seemed irrelevant ?!
and yes, someone might suggest to swap over the complete panel array from the healthy speaker - i keep the option in reserve for now.
thank you
i shall report back
Your saying "panels all fine" But you describe a Solder ball on the edge of a diaphram. That is absolutely a panel problem. High voltage speakers with conductive solder anywhere close to stator will be problems. If there was a solder ball that is also something that would melt or damage a diaphragm on an electrostatic speaker. You need to put away this idea that the rebuilder is impervious to making any kind of mistake and at least discuss with him the issues you are having. Everything you are describing sounds like a panel issue.
Thanks for your comments but before I cane the person who did the diaphragms for me I had to point out
he had absolutely nothing to do with soldering !
it must have happened when I reinstalled the panelsā¦.a very small splash.
as said, I managed to flick it off.
well, to the argument about panel issue:
sure, one can not absolutely rule it out, everyone can make a mistake.
i did open all 4 panels but can of course not look under the diaphragms without wrecking themā¦only the other half where I could not find anything fishy on the stators - nothing sticking out, no strange particles ā¦.nothing.
i reassembled the speaker, turned it on without any connections to the amp. All I could hear was a plopping nosie sounding like a periodic discharge from the center panels which coincided with a wildly flashing neon.
so the center panels quite obviously leakingā¦.but where and how ??
further comments are invited š
he had absolutely nothing to do with soldering !
it must have happened when I reinstalled the panelsā¦.a very small splash.
as said, I managed to flick it off.
well, to the argument about panel issue:
sure, one can not absolutely rule it out, everyone can make a mistake.
i did open all 4 panels but can of course not look under the diaphragms without wrecking themā¦only the other half where I could not find anything fishy on the stators - nothing sticking out, no strange particles ā¦.nothing.
i reassembled the speaker, turned it on without any connections to the amp. All I could hear was a plopping nosie sounding like a periodic discharge from the center panels which coincided with a wildly flashing neon.
so the center panels quite obviously leakingā¦.but where and how ??
further comments are invited š
Turn off the lights in the room and turn on so that the noise is happening. See can you see the little spark from the arcing. Its not always that visible, and you really need to be eagle eyed for it. It might not be arcing, but might only be leaky but its worth a check.
If its leaky panel I would clean all around the outside rim of the panels, scraping off any material, plus even (carefully) cleaning all around that outside edge with some isopropanol. Whether you split the panels to do this or not is kind of up to you, but I would be careful of seepage into the split if you don't. Also, try to see where the conductive coating is on the mylar - panels can leak if it is too close to the corner holes.
If its leaky panel I would clean all around the outside rim of the panels, scraping off any material, plus even (carefully) cleaning all around that outside edge with some isopropanol. Whether you split the panels to do this or not is kind of up to you, but I would be careful of seepage into the split if you don't. Also, try to see where the conductive coating is on the mylar - panels can leak if it is too close to the corner holes.
I can not see any sparks from arcing, no matter what.
It sounds indeed like leaking panels. The coating used is almost invisible - its not the grey coating Quad used on its originals .
probably a good idea to clean the outside edges of each panel. I will also use some insulation tape under the metal clamps - lets see if I can find any nylon screws for the corners, which might help as well.
It does indeed, but on all 4 panels ??
I had all of them done together for the two speakers and that would be a real coincidence, wouldnāt it or should I say bad luck ??
i believe the guy who did them is just too experienced to make such mistakes, butā¦ā¦??
after careful inspection i could not see any glue failing around the edges or the slightest looseness of the diaphragms?!
I ruled out the electronic, inspected -as far as possible - the coil/cap boards without finding anything suspect
so, all is pointing to leaking panelsā¦..or indeed insufficient diaphragm tension??
something got to give !
If you have a signal generator, you can put a low level sine wave into them and sweep through the bass range to identify the primary diaphragm resonance. A volt or two of input is all that's needed. The resonance should be obvious by ear. According to the service manual, it's typically around 50 Hz for the whole speaker.
I had a friends set here that had new panels by a reputable repairer. Sometimes things don't go right, despite the person being excellent at their work - and this was such a case. In this case, there was a leak from the panels to the support bar on one side - which is insulated from the rest of the frame by the rubber grommets at either end. There was no leakage from there, so that panels held charge very well, and worked fine other than that. I could never solve it, and I could only ever put it down to at least one panel being leaky, but I suspect it was more than one. As you say the coating is very hard to see and it is easy enough for a little dribble to run to the corner of the panel etc.
Fixing these speakers is a surprisingly crafty operation, exactly how you do everything is actually really important.
Fixing these speakers is a surprisingly crafty operation, exactly how you do everything is actually really important.
well, the coating could have happened the way you mentioned.
after opening all panels i cleaned all panel edges with isopropyl alc.
i also want to try nylon screws when refitting the panels to see whether this has a positiv outcome.
if not I see no other sensible option than sending the 4 panels back š
So has this phenomena your experiencing occurred from day one of receiving the panels back from repair? If so I think you should at least discuss with repairman. If he is the expert he may have quite a bit of knowledge in what to check and look for. He also may think that with all the troubleshooting you are doing to panels that you may void any warranty that his service provides?? Exotic speaker tech can be very frustrating to troubleshoot. I had Acoustats for a dozen years. Luckily their panels were quite robust and all my issues were in the interfaces and I could handle all of that. High voltage is a pain bc everything is critical. Good luck.