You're welcome!
Yes and in general, yes; for instance my 15" Altec 515B = 0.15"/3.81 mm [don't know its Xmech], but with excursion increasing 4x [6 dB]/octave that last [27.5 Hz] [normally rolled off in recording] piano note can bottom out its spider at piano bar levels [~THX specs' 105 dB/m/channel/LP] in my ~open space room, so no way any smaller driver has a chance unless protected somehow.
Obviously, few [if any] 'FR' aficionados are going to listen at anywhere near this peak level [~85 - 90 dB/m/channel], but every time you halve the driver's piston area it's lost 6 dB worth of excursion, so even at [much] reduced SPL a surprising number of folks have/accept or outright prefer a sometimes significant amount of euphonic distortion.
Yes and in general, yes; for instance my 15" Altec 515B = 0.15"/3.81 mm [don't know its Xmech], but with excursion increasing 4x [6 dB]/octave that last [27.5 Hz] [normally rolled off in recording] piano note can bottom out its spider at piano bar levels [~THX specs' 105 dB/m/channel/LP] in my ~open space room, so no way any smaller driver has a chance unless protected somehow.
Obviously, few [if any] 'FR' aficionados are going to listen at anywhere near this peak level [~85 - 90 dB/m/channel], but every time you halve the driver's piston area it's lost 6 dB worth of excursion, so even at [much] reduced SPL a surprising number of folks have/accept or outright prefer a sometimes significant amount of euphonic distortion.
There are several reasons.
a) Don't like to buy trashy electronics from amazon
b) have 20cm woofer speakers at hand which I will likely integrate to the sides of the current 3"ers sometime in the future. Why not now? Well, designing and building lots of other stuff currently. Just finished LPUHP clones (mono blocks), designing a 10 (up to) 14 channel ESS DAC (mono blocks), writing the next version of pulseaudio crossover rack. And as I said, they play plenty loud and with good tight bass, so I don't have to worry about sub placement etc at the moment.
c) EQ is done with my crossover software - hence it comes for free 🙂
Distortion - how much is too much?
How much distortion is too much?
was a topic which was discussed here (excuse me its in german):
How much distortion is too much?
they organized a program where you can do by yourself a blind listening test with headphones (good idea).
Here you can see what they found out for K2 distortion:
- the ear at 80db music loudness is most sensitive to the midrange region of 1 khz. At 5 khz and 500 Hertz the ear is 10x less sensitive to distortion.
This is why I always take care in my loudspeaker projects that distortion does not occur where the ear is most sensitive to that.
They summerized (in german):
die Klirrempfindlichkeit ist im mittleren Frequenzbereich um 1 kHz am größten
bei 100 Hz bzw. 5 kHz ist die Klirrempfindlichkeit etwa 10x kleiner
für mittlere Pegelbereiche von 70 bis 90 dB ist die Klirrempfindlichkeit am größten
in english:
- the distortion sensitivity is greatest in the middle frequency range around 1 kHz at 100 Hz or 5 kHz the distortion sensitivity is about 10x smaller for medium level ranges from 70 to 90 dB the distortion sensitivity of the ear is greatest
Klirr-Verdeckung means in english "distortion hiding" - its meant the threshold where distortion becomes obvious
How much distortion is too much?
was a topic which was discussed here (excuse me its in german):
How much distortion is too much?
they organized a program where you can do by yourself a blind listening test with headphones (good idea).
Here you can see what they found out for K2 distortion:
- the ear at 80db music loudness is most sensitive to the midrange region of 1 khz. At 5 khz and 500 Hertz the ear is 10x less sensitive to distortion.
This is why I always take care in my loudspeaker projects that distortion does not occur where the ear is most sensitive to that.
They summerized (in german):
die Klirrempfindlichkeit ist im mittleren Frequenzbereich um 1 kHz am größten
bei 100 Hz bzw. 5 kHz ist die Klirrempfindlichkeit etwa 10x kleiner
für mittlere Pegelbereiche von 70 bis 90 dB ist die Klirrempfindlichkeit am größten
in english:
- the distortion sensitivity is greatest in the middle frequency range around 1 kHz at 100 Hz or 5 kHz the distortion sensitivity is about 10x smaller for medium level ranges from 70 to 90 dB the distortion sensitivity of the ear is greatest
Klirr-Verdeckung means in english "distortion hiding" - its meant the threshold where distortion becomes obvious
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Sorry, I don’t know, my son picked them up for me. They are bamboo and very rigid and there’s no sign of vibration when they are playing
Brian
Did you stuff them with acoustic wadding and/or do anything else to break up the internal space? Whilst a sphere is a very good shape externally, it's probably the worst interally.I used plumber’s mait type stuff behind the driver in the form of three sausages, but I didn’t use any wadding. I planned to do a test, with and without wadding, but haven’t got round to it yet
Edit. That was three years ago, so not looking likely to happen
Brian
Edit. That was three years ago, so not looking likely to happen
Brian
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Hmm, if I follow, it's harmonic distortion 'pure and simple', so re the 'stretched' bass certainly is euphonic based on nearly a century's worth of various pioneer's speaker system's continuing popularity to this day, not to mention the vast majority of single driver systems. 😉
Once moved into the critical mids/our acute hearing BW though, we rapidly become quite intolerant and why new and/or un-tweaked whizzers, DCs, cone damping rapid/abrupt transitions can get on our 'last nerve' in the proverbial 'NY minute', especially for those of us with tinnitus.
But IMD produces non-harmonic distortion and isn't the phase distortion that is responsible for FMD also non-harmonic?
As a brief philosophical digression from the nominal topic:
It's the strange thing so it is, that the majority of people struggle to effectively alter their prose style. Even many professional authors find it a challenge, although the better ones usually attempt to do so for artistic development or interest somewhere along the line. Even then, quirks of grammar, the sentence, linguistic and punctuation structure all tend to have distinctive markers. This applies particularly when a particular objective remains in place, which requires a fixed approach, or is believed to.
Digression over.
It's the strange thing so it is, that the majority of people struggle to effectively alter their prose style. Even many professional authors find it a challenge, although the better ones usually attempt to do so for artistic development or interest somewhere along the line. Even then, quirks of grammar, the sentence, linguistic and punctuation structure all tend to have distinctive markers. This applies particularly when a particular objective remains in place, which requires a fixed approach, or is believed to.
Digression over.
There are not enough "complete" responses in this thread regarding the proper use of an eq.
1. Use the equalizer to reduce peaks, not to boost nulls.
2. On average, sliders should be as close to zero as possible (for every slider above zero, there should be another below zero. Having all sliders above zero is adding senseless distortion; the volume knob is the proper tool for increasing overall gain (this is often actually decreasing the attenuation).
3. Use a dedicated subwoofer so that you are giving the main speakers and amplifier as much headroom as possible.
4. You can DSP/EQ the snot out of the input of the subwoofer amplifier without effing up your main left and right speakers and amp. Again, focus on attenuating what you don't want rather than boosting what you think you want.
5. High current amplifiers are better than high wattage if you'd like more bass authority. High-value slow-blow fuses are the norm for these (like 8A or higher on the power supply and 5A or higher on the DC rails).
For the record, I run my main speakers full-range with zero EQ/tone control (my preamp only has an input selector and volume knob), and run a fairly large passive subwoofer off of a bridged-mono amp that is fed by a DSP with a fairly sharp low-pass filter at about 45 Hz.
1. Use the equalizer to reduce peaks, not to boost nulls.
2. On average, sliders should be as close to zero as possible (for every slider above zero, there should be another below zero. Having all sliders above zero is adding senseless distortion; the volume knob is the proper tool for increasing overall gain (this is often actually decreasing the attenuation).
3. Use a dedicated subwoofer so that you are giving the main speakers and amplifier as much headroom as possible.
4. You can DSP/EQ the snot out of the input of the subwoofer amplifier without effing up your main left and right speakers and amp. Again, focus on attenuating what you don't want rather than boosting what you think you want.
5. High current amplifiers are better than high wattage if you'd like more bass authority. High-value slow-blow fuses are the norm for these (like 8A or higher on the power supply and 5A or higher on the DC rails).
For the record, I run my main speakers full-range with zero EQ/tone control (my preamp only has an input selector and volume knob), and run a fairly large passive subwoofer off of a bridged-mono amp that is fed by a DSP with a fairly sharp low-pass filter at about 45 Hz.
I use FR driver and box that don't need to use bass EQ.
【空気録音】AIYIMA B2D1957（USB音源）+ DXYD40N-22P-4A - Liszt / Prelude on B-A-C-H ～超ミニスピーカーでパイプオルガンは再生できるのか？ - YouTube
【空気録音】AIYIMA B2D1957（USB音源）+ DXYD40N-22P-4A - Liszt / Prelude on B-A-C-H ～超ミニスピーカーでパイプオルガンは再生できるのか？ - YouTube
I have two systems that I listen to regularly. Both multi-way, but both use EQ to sort out the LF range.
The main system has a pair of 8" drivers per side in sealed boxes. The room is very helpful, and gives me a response that rises to around +15dB (over the nominal level) at 40Hz, and then reaches 0dB around 10Hz.
With that system, I reduce the 40Hz mountain, end up flat to 10Hz, and actually gain headroom. The system can play pretty loud without complaint.
The desktop/office system is a different story. I use a pair of Kef HTS3001SE driven by an Akai AM2250. The bass reflex ports are blocked off, which results in a rolloff below around 150Hz. Without EQ, the sound isn't particularly satisfying.
With around +25dB of boost, they get flat down to about 35Hz, which is enough to keep me happy. Of course, when I play something with strong LF content, there are large demands on the amplifier and drivers - the cones are visibly moving at moderate SPLs, and if I try to push beyond "moderate", they quickly run out of steam.
In my experience, low-frequency EQ is essential for high-quality reproduction: once you've experienced a system that's smooth and flat in the bass, anything else sounds lumpy and uneven in comparison.
Chris
The main system has a pair of 8" drivers per side in sealed boxes. The room is very helpful, and gives me a response that rises to around +15dB (over the nominal level) at 40Hz, and then reaches 0dB around 10Hz.
With that system, I reduce the 40Hz mountain, end up flat to 10Hz, and actually gain headroom. The system can play pretty loud without complaint.
The desktop/office system is a different story. I use a pair of Kef HTS3001SE driven by an Akai AM2250. The bass reflex ports are blocked off, which results in a rolloff below around 150Hz. Without EQ, the sound isn't particularly satisfying.
With around +25dB of boost, they get flat down to about 35Hz, which is enough to keep me happy. Of course, when I play something with strong LF content, there are large demands on the amplifier and drivers - the cones are visibly moving at moderate SPLs, and if I try to push beyond "moderate", they quickly run out of steam.
In my experience, low-frequency EQ is essential for high-quality reproduction: once you've experienced a system that's smooth and flat in the bass, anything else sounds lumpy and uneven in comparison.
Chris
An EQ helps to construct very good loudspeakers especially with measuring equipment. One - way fullrange loudspeakers profit from the use of equalizing. You can optimize the loudspeaker diaphragm to more stability and wider dispersion at high frequencies at the cost of the wide band. Then the EQ comes in to correct the frequency response.
Prominent examples are Pfleid FRS20 loudspeakers from germany from Mr. Pfleid and the Bose 901 system.
I really miss in amplifier production the integration of at least three to five parametric EQs. If I would be the ruler of the world I would make this mandatory in amplifier production. 😉
Prominent examples are Pfleid FRS20 loudspeakers from germany from Mr. Pfleid and the Bose 901 system.
I really miss in amplifier production the integration of at least three to five parametric EQs. If I would be the ruler of the world I would make this mandatory in amplifier production. 😉
Could agree on in amp convolution engine, but the user should know what he is doing in order not to damage something.Good but not for everyone.
Given my listening area, the living room, and the speaker positioning of my Advent Maestros, I find that I'm quite satisfied with giving the lowest (63Hz) equalizer setting a mere 3dB boost, and the 6.3kHz a tiny 2dB boost.
Patsy Cline and her backup Jordanaires come across like they're in the room.
Patsy Cline and her backup Jordanaires come across like they're in the room.
It may be that at the end some people will misuse the EQ. But without EQ possibilities you cannot learn and try out to use the filters. I learned a lot using EQ for my loudspeakers. I admit that only with measurements you really know what you do.