Perhaps my expectations of perfection from vinyl was unfair and unrealistic... Or perhaps I am doing something wrong?
I was kind of expecting the quality to be on par or exceeding that of CDs... Whilst it sounds fine when played directly on speakers, but when i listened back-to-back against the original FLAC source on headphones, I've noticed the sound to be lacking in depth and warmth mostly in bass and treble. I'm also not sure if it's just me or if the pitch is also slightly higher as well. Not to mention I have one of those carbon fibre brushes which is leaving heaps of strands on the disk, and they seem to be attracted like a magnet which i assume to be a build up of static electricity. Compressed air kind of helps but its not 100%. The first time played new, it had absolutely zero pops/crackle... But now it seems like I can't remove them.
Question is: What am I doing wrong or what can be done better? Does it maybe just need some post processing to account for the vinyl mastering? Or is this as good as it gets?
Thanks in advance.
Turntable: Pioneer Rondo 3000X/Y with new stylus cartridge
Preamp: Creative Labs SoundBlaster SB1240 (Direct recording)
Preamp: TCC TC-750 (Video +1 .wav file)
https://mega.nz/folder/hl9G0bYR#NXF1oXJuTzlJEFEh4T0CxQ
I was kind of expecting the quality to be on par or exceeding that of CDs... Whilst it sounds fine when played directly on speakers, but when i listened back-to-back against the original FLAC source on headphones, I've noticed the sound to be lacking in depth and warmth mostly in bass and treble. I'm also not sure if it's just me or if the pitch is also slightly higher as well. Not to mention I have one of those carbon fibre brushes which is leaving heaps of strands on the disk, and they seem to be attracted like a magnet which i assume to be a build up of static electricity. Compressed air kind of helps but its not 100%. The first time played new, it had absolutely zero pops/crackle... But now it seems like I can't remove them.
Question is: What am I doing wrong or what can be done better? Does it maybe just need some post processing to account for the vinyl mastering? Or is this as good as it gets?
Thanks in advance.
Turntable: Pioneer Rondo 3000X/Y with new stylus cartridge
Preamp: Creative Labs SoundBlaster SB1240 (Direct recording)
Preamp: TCC TC-750 (Video +1 .wav file)
https://mega.nz/folder/hl9G0bYR#NXF1oXJuTzlJEFEh4T0CxQ
Vinyl on speakers versus FLAC on headphones is confounding. You need to change just one variable.
Try vinyl vs FLAC over speakers
You are correct
I built my RIAA preamp frequency response to be against several records vs CD.
Fleetwood mac greatest hits
Dire straits brothers in arms
Michael Jackson thriller
Now the records sound better then CD
The takeaway here is that my preamp only follows RIAA as a guideline.
Cart is a Shure VM 15 type 2
I built my RIAA preamp frequency response to be against several records vs CD.
Fleetwood mac greatest hits
Dire straits brothers in arms
Michael Jackson thriller
Now the records sound better then CD
The takeaway here is that my preamp only follows RIAA as a guideline.
Cart is a Shure VM 15 type 2
You have just taken the first step of a long, frustrating and expensive journey!
When everything is perfect you will approach the performance of a digital playback system reproducing well recorded and mastered material.
That said, some digital recordings have been further compressed than their vinyl counterparts. If you have such a pressing and you have completed your long, frustrating and expensive journey the end result playing vinyl may be more pleasing to the ear.
The tactile nature of vinyl must also be acknowledged. The whole ritual of playing a record is no doubt far more satisfying than simply pressing play.
When everything is perfect you will approach the performance of a digital playback system reproducing well recorded and mastered material.
That said, some digital recordings have been further compressed than their vinyl counterparts. If you have such a pressing and you have completed your long, frustrating and expensive journey the end result playing vinyl may be more pleasing to the ear.
The tactile nature of vinyl must also be acknowledged. The whole ritual of playing a record is no doubt far more satisfying than simply pressing play.
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You're not doing anything wrong, it's just your setup is pretty entry level by today's standards. You'll need to throw a bit more money at it if you expect to rival a good CD.
jeff
I wholeheartedly agree.
LPs are a mechanical mechanism and that stuff is going to be expensive.
IMHO, if you can't afford to spend at least $2500 into your analog front end, you'd be much better off just getting a good DAC, an Android tablet, an USB OTG cable and a subscription. I used Tidal Hi Fi and get very good results.
OTOH, since I also have 4000+ LPs, I can't ignore that... hence the LP12, Lingo, Grado, CJ tube preamp, etc... and some very good good AD/DACs. Minimum is 24/96 WAV... no lossy since storage got cheap enough about 20 years ago for this kind of work. Figure on 1.2GB per two sides of an LP.
Now here comes the kick... so about 15 years ago I got it so I could record my LPs at 24/96 and play them back with matching fidelity.... WooHooo.
hmmm... you see, my LP playback is a living affair... so when I update stuff like the TT power supply, the cartridge, the TT suspension, the preamp, tubes, capacitors.... etc... that improves the sound of the playback. So, it invalidates the recordings.
Oh well, I enjoy playing records.
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Nope. Vinyl sounds different... Simple as that. Not better (*), not worse.
(*) OK much better when you compare to those nasty jobs from the late 70s and 80s.
Sorry to break it to you, but you have put together at best a vintage late 70s mid fi system. Except your phono preamp is a step backwards from what was already available then.
There were MUCH better sounding systems by then...
Technology has moved on tremendously since then. The mid-fi analog world died off a while back because most people just did not care. Only audiophiles realized that analog sounded better and kept the medium afloat.
Today's analog is far, FAR better.
You might want to look into getting a modern turntable, cartridge and phono preamp. If you buy new, you'll be looking at $2500. If you buy on sale you can get deals, also look into the used market.
Unfortunately there is very little in the DIY audio world for analog sources.
hifishark.com
Firstly you need to treat a Turntable as a very sensitive seismic measurement instrument, any and I mean any vibrations not from the groove will interfere with the sound. Most of the Japanese high-end TT's were direct drive and their consumer TT's were considerably cheaper and belt drive, I'M NOT SAYING BELT DRIVE IS BAD, what I'm saying is the engineering was not invested in their consumer TT's. These consumer level TT's have very resonant platters and plinths. I was a bench tech for Marantz in the 1980's and their consumer TT's (including the entry level DD's) were average at best, the high-end Esoteric range was a totally different story and the TT1000 was a very competent performer.
There are other factors involved too, what pressings are you listening to. Most of my LP's were pressed prior to 1990 and the sound quality of them is significantly better than their CD counterparts and the later LP pressings ( I stopped buying new LP's because of the poor sound quality). One eg is Pink Floyd's The Wall, I have a 1st UK pressing and the first CD version. The LP is WAY ahead of the CD. This is not a fault of the Digital medium as my system uses open baffle speakers with digital crossovers so my vinyl rig is digitized.
If you really want to get into vinyl buy some old original pressings and use these as a reference to improve your system. To improve a HIFI system you need to work from the speakers backwards. If the speakers can't reproduce the detail in a source then you have no way of knowing if you have improved the source. Once you have system that is capable of good resolution it then small changes in a source can be very audible.
There are other factors involved too, what pressings are you listening to. Most of my LP's were pressed prior to 1990 and the sound quality of them is significantly better than their CD counterparts and the later LP pressings ( I stopped buying new LP's because of the poor sound quality). One eg is Pink Floyd's The Wall, I have a 1st UK pressing and the first CD version. The LP is WAY ahead of the CD. This is not a fault of the Digital medium as my system uses open baffle speakers with digital crossovers so my vinyl rig is digitized.
If you really want to get into vinyl buy some old original pressings and use these as a reference to improve your system. To improve a HIFI system you need to work from the speakers backwards. If the speakers can't reproduce the detail in a source then you have no way of knowing if you have improved the source. Once you have system that is capable of good resolution it then small changes in a source can be very audible.
On the "doing something wrong", different posters have suggested directions.
Yet "my expectations" is the starting point.
Nobody except you can know what is it /was, but now, once the rubber hits the road, we are in the real stuff, and that's what it is.
Expectation's recalibration needed to go forward or let it as it is, you decide!
Happened to me on different stuffs and changed over time depending listenning and comparison [some stuffs i thought an improvement when doing the change, but later, listenning more on different musics, changed my judgment/assessment]
So, try to enjoy the journey thanks to catching differences across the same music heard on different systems/components
Have a nice day
Actually, pretty much the mid 70s Warner Brothers LPs were uniformly outstanding.
America, A Horse With No Name.
A&M/IOde were not bad at all.
Carol King, Tapestry.
Also, OP, you might want to invest in a record cleaning machine and a stylus cleaner. I got a VPI HW16.5, a Hunt EDA Brush and an Onzow Zerodust stylus cleaner. Keeping your records and stylus CLEAN are the single most important thing that you MUST do.
AND, don't play your LPs more than once in a 24 hour period. Let the vinyl rest. You can likely get a away twice, but don't do that often.
Lastly, get a cartridge with a line contact stylus, aka "Shibata".. they track heavier but because of their larger footprint on the groove they wear out the vinyl much less and mistrack very little. The elliptical stylii, like your Shure, will wear out the groove faster.
I got some LPs that I've owned new since '70. And I've got a bunch I bought used, garage sales used to be great.. after you clean them and play them with the Shibata stylus, which rides on a different part of the groove from the ellipticals, sounds like new and the dynamics are outstanding.
Sinatra, Live At The Sands, with the Nelson Riddle Band. 1958.
Thanks so much guys. Heaps of good info to sort through... I'll have to go back later to further expand on points i dont understand... But LOLO69 is on the money with it starting with 'expectations'. My setup and cleaning technique clearly has a long, frustrating and expensive way to go yet. Funnily enough that 'step backwards' preamp was recommend to me on here 10 years ago... Though i put this setup together for my mum on the cheap, so for her its perhaps 'fit for purpose'. Having said this, with experience like from those who've gone down this path before, would have allready 'calibrated' expectations.
I just thought i'd address the first reply: i sat down and relistened to the vinyl on my speakers, (receiver: Onkyo HT-R690, speakers: 8x Sherwood Alto 620 in surround, sub amp: Cadence Q3000 (automotive) and Sub is a gutted 10" home theater unit (DSE AE2925) and in my inexperienced opinion, it sounds pretty good to me, the soundstage is easily better than listening off youtube with headphones. Though the snap crackle and pops definitely aren't as noticeable without headphones, which means its probably being masked/muffled by something. So i then swapped directly to FLAC, and to tell the truth, surprisingly i was quite impressed... And a little surprised. First difference is its significantly louder. The sound stage was much more intense, bass much much stronger, clearer and smoother. I actually noticed more intricate detail in the highs that i didn't hear on my cheap headphones. (Sennheiser HD429). From what i'm learning is that the source is only 1/3rd of the equation, with the rest being what devices are used and what combination of hardware too.
I just thought i'd address the first reply: i sat down and relistened to the vinyl on my speakers, (receiver: Onkyo HT-R690, speakers: 8x Sherwood Alto 620 in surround, sub amp: Cadence Q3000 (automotive) and Sub is a gutted 10" home theater unit (DSE AE2925) and in my inexperienced opinion, it sounds pretty good to me, the soundstage is easily better than listening off youtube with headphones. Though the snap crackle and pops definitely aren't as noticeable without headphones, which means its probably being masked/muffled by something. So i then swapped directly to FLAC, and to tell the truth, surprisingly i was quite impressed... And a little surprised. First difference is its significantly louder. The sound stage was much more intense, bass much much stronger, clearer and smoother. I actually noticed more intricate detail in the highs that i didn't hear on my cheap headphones. (Sennheiser HD429). From what i'm learning is that the source is only 1/3rd of the equation, with the rest being what devices are used and what combination of hardware too.
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You can't compare the digital sound with the analog sound. The albums of today, most albums are digitally put on the record nowadays, so you get the sound of the Da converter for free, if you want to play analog find lp,s for 1985. I am Saïd sorry ,about your installation is something for the amateur, not much special.
And another thing, brands of amplifier and CD and record player don't mean anything to me, the prices don't bless me either, it's just a marketing story. You have analog worshippers and digital worshippers. You decide what you want, and not the goere, s. I have been in audio for 45 years, experienced a lot of developments, miracles do not exist.
I'd dare say it's still a fair comparison as they are both analogue sound waves travelling through my ear...
The music genre i'm currently playing is Synthwave... its a kind of new retro of the 80s... so the aesthetic fits at least
But it's not the only genre I listen to, for example, I could listen to early albums of Metallica, Motorhead etc. I'm pretty sure they were all mastered on tape anyway... Either way, the aim of this little exercise is just for fun and to reproduce something Hi-res, close to master/source quality, and to just make a digital backup of the physical media that I've bought, so I don't have to a) wear out my vinyl, and b) I'm not listening to pirated flac files ripped from CDs. I don't care much that the music is exactly the same, (as with digital copies)... but to me it's psychologically not the same as it's not created from the physical medium that I physically own.Well, that kind of goes without saying... As the title suggests, it's literally my first attempt. If I wasn't an amateur, I wouldn't be asking for advice...
Hold on... we're discussing your LP playing, so in this case, the source is 100% of the equation, huh?
From the cleaning, cartridge, turntable to phono preamp... LPs are definitely capable of sounding better than most digital. Specially those LPs that were recorded in the days when they paid attention to their engineering and producing. Sadly that means pre 1980.
Indeed, the 80s were a Dark Age for audio. Around the 90s things started to sound better as digital got much better. But not until the audio world woke up to 24/96 did things get fun for us audiophiles.
Ironically, today with the best available recording media with upwards of 120db of dynamic range, music SUCKS. They compress it, give it a 6 db dynamic range, boost the mid bass.. and all so it will sound good in cheap *** Apple earbuds.
In the 50s and 60s they would master and cut the "hits" for AM radio. In the aforementioned Sinatra, Live At The Sands, you can clearly hear the "hit songs", they sound compressed. The rest, though, were for home (or FM) listening and they sound far, FAR better. Indeed they sound modern by current standards.
So, don't give up. This is after all a DIY forum for audiophiles. I don't build much anymore... but I enjoy the crowd and I have some found some people who have repaired, and built for me, some components. My advice to you is to ditch the commercial stuff, it's overpriced and overhyped, and look into putting together a good system of DIY components (buy them used) and used stuff from hifishark.com. Build yourself a nice audio system, devoid of the complexities of HT... a nice TT front end, a Tablet/DAC streamer, a simple preamp (B1), a nice amp (hopefully a Pass design) and a pair of good sounding mini-or-midi speakers.
Don't rush it, it's supposed to be a life long hobby. Start by cleaning your records and stylus, then upgrade your phono preamp, then start into getting a better TT and cartridge. Onkyo receivers used to be good sounding... but a nice DIY B1 and a DIY A5 (or the like) and a pair of Elac Debuts will blow your mind.
You should also explore building a NAS on an ethernet network to store all of your digital source files. You could replace the Android Tablet with a nice MFF PC, use the USB to connect to the DAC and the ethernet to go to the NAS. You will need a display/keyboard/mouse but for everyday use you can use remote terminal and access/control it with your tablet/smart phone.
And whatever you do, DO NOT PLAY HASSELHOFF CDs in your system.
And, I still don't understand the FLAC thing. Do you mean your Creative Labs box has a real time FLAC encoder?
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That, i think I did my best to do, mainly by trying to target a volume level that felt equal to my ear. Though it's not just a difference in emphasis on bass/treble/high, but i'm also listening for clarity, detail, smoothness, and unwanted artifacts like distortion, clipping, hiss, pops, 50hz hum, etc etc etc.
I am aware of the 'loudness wars' though...
You should have been in my living room when after warming up the Linn, the CJ preamp and the new DIY A2 I lowered the stylus on the record and the Maggies started to sing like they had NEVER done before.