Hi,
I'm on a journey to improve my system in my living room.. It is reasonably large room with a total volume of 140m3.
Current equipment:
I'm mostly listening to music but do enjoy a good movie now and then. Not playing loud (wife and kid are limiting the db!). I'm looking to improve the sub to bring a bit more low and presence to the room. The current sub is good for music but I think a bit small to move enough air for the room.
I'm based in New Zealand, and everything (when there's something) is very expensive here. I wanted to go with a SVS SB-1000 pro which cost 1500 NZD (=920USD!!!)
I like woodworking and DIY and have all the tools, so can definitely build my own sub. Problem, we only have car speaker drivers available here and shipping cost and tax duty doesn't make import possible (for a 15 inch, it cost more than 300 USD to ship, + 15% tax)
My aim is to build something better than the SVS-SB1000 with the same budget.
I found 2 potential drivers:
Powered with a Behringer NX3000D, and a box made of plywood (I don't like working with MDF!).
I'm more into bass details rather than power, so was thinking it is better (and easier) to go with a sealed design.
I don't want to go higher than 120 liters for the box.
Below the WinISD results (blue the alpine, red the rockford).
Also attached my oddly shaped living room with potential placement for 2 subwoofers (in red)
The 15 inch is of course the clear winner in term of SPL, and could for sure benefit from a bigger box (I might be able to slightly extend the box and stuff foam inside to gain some volume ....).
And this for the same price than the SVS (I'm not counting my own time involve in the building process, because I do like doing this 🙂 )
Now the questions:
1) Do you see a problem with those results or using those drivers for home use?
2) With the behringer integrated DSP, could I get a flat frequency from 25hz (ideally 20) to 120? is 100db loud enough?
3) Both those driver are around the same price, so I'm wondering if the alpine is better built and would provide a more detail sound? Or is it just, bigger is better, go with the rockford? I'm not looking for power here (my current 10 inch very old SW 150 isn't reaching max power (I think 🙂 )
4) Or should I just go with the SVS-SB1000 because it would provide a better sound?
Thanks for reading and for your advice.
Alex
I'm on a journey to improve my system in my living room.. It is reasonably large room with a total volume of 140m3.
Current equipment:
- Receiver: Anthem MRX 520
- Front: Kef LS50
- Sub: 10inch Whaferdale SW 150 (that's the one I want to replace!)
- Back: Kef egg (not using them much)
I'm mostly listening to music but do enjoy a good movie now and then. Not playing loud (wife and kid are limiting the db!). I'm looking to improve the sub to bring a bit more low and presence to the room. The current sub is good for music but I think a bit small to move enough air for the room.
I'm based in New Zealand, and everything (when there's something) is very expensive here. I wanted to go with a SVS SB-1000 pro which cost 1500 NZD (=920USD!!!)
I like woodworking and DIY and have all the tools, so can definitely build my own sub. Problem, we only have car speaker drivers available here and shipping cost and tax duty doesn't make import possible (for a 15 inch, it cost more than 300 USD to ship, + 15% tax)
My aim is to build something better than the SVS-SB1000 with the same budget.
I found 2 potential drivers:
- 15 inch: Rockford fosgate P3D4-15 ( https://rockfordfosgate.com/products/details/p3d4-15/ )
- 12 inch: Alpine R2-W12D4 ( https://www.alpine.com.au/shop/subw...2d4-r-series-12-subwoofer-alpine-electronics/ )
Powered with a Behringer NX3000D, and a box made of plywood (I don't like working with MDF!).
I'm more into bass details rather than power, so was thinking it is better (and easier) to go with a sealed design.
I don't want to go higher than 120 liters for the box.
Below the WinISD results (blue the alpine, red the rockford).
Also attached my oddly shaped living room with potential placement for 2 subwoofers (in red)
The 15 inch is of course the clear winner in term of SPL, and could for sure benefit from a bigger box (I might be able to slightly extend the box and stuff foam inside to gain some volume ....).
And this for the same price than the SVS (I'm not counting my own time involve in the building process, because I do like doing this 🙂 )
Now the questions:
1) Do you see a problem with those results or using those drivers for home use?
2) With the behringer integrated DSP, could I get a flat frequency from 25hz (ideally 20) to 120? is 100db loud enough?
3) Both those driver are around the same price, so I'm wondering if the alpine is better built and would provide a more detail sound? Or is it just, bigger is better, go with the rockford? I'm not looking for power here (my current 10 inch very old SW 150 isn't reaching max power (I think 🙂 )
4) Or should I just go with the SVS-SB1000 because it would provide a better sound?
Thanks for reading and for your advice.
Alex
Alex,
1)No, though you don't show excursion or impedance. The NX-3000D should swing over 50volts peak.
2)Yes. As to level, 100dB at 20Hz may be plenty, or not enough, depending on the listener. In room response at your listening position may (will) be quite different than your simulation
3)The Alpine has 20mm Xmax (72mm Xmech), the Rockford 15mm, about a 2dB difference in output potential if the Rockford reaches it's rated linear excursion.
I've heard the Alpine R2 live up to specifications, have not heard much about the Rockford.
4) IIRC, the SVS-SB1000 has 12mm Xmax, so won't have the output potential of the Alpine.
It probably would sound better "out of the box", but you may be able to do better with DSP, if you put in the time to learn and implement what they have done.
Cheers,
Art
Thanks.
I'm kind of leaning toward the Alpine, even if it is only a 12inch, I can fit it in a smaller box and still get good result, and could build 2 of them with the NX3000D to drive them both.
Here the impedance and excursion.
Alpine set to 350W and Rockford to 400W. The alpine is above limit under 20hz and Rockford is below limit.
My plan is to use the behringer DSP but then I would also run the Anthem Room Correction for all the speaker including the sub. So I hope with proper EQ I'll get good result with those car speaker...
I'm kind of leaning toward the Alpine, even if it is only a 12inch, I can fit it in a smaller box and still get good result, and could build 2 of them with the NX3000D to drive them both.
Here the impedance and excursion.
Alpine set to 350W and Rockford to 400W. The alpine is above limit under 20hz and Rockford is below limit.
My plan is to use the behringer DSP but then I would also run the Anthem Room Correction for all the speaker including the sub. So I hope with proper EQ I'll get good result with those car speaker...
Jaycar have a 12"sub in NZ for $99, buy 4 I say😉(they drop down to $89 or buy 10@ $79ea)website says their in stock.
They quote a 100lt + box but have a Rf of 23hz so can get low, if you buy multiples you could always run them isobaric to half the volume needed.
They quote a 100lt + box but have a Rf of 23hz so can get low, if you buy multiples you could always run them isobaric to half the volume needed.
just had a little play using their specs in winisd (fails the driver integrity test though...) a pair of these in a common chamber 100ltr box ported @23hz using a single 14cmx77cm port looks pretty good!
But I'd be measuring them to get proper T/S specs, the specs they give differs from the ones on the frequency graph pictures tested on a LMS system.
But I'd be measuring them to get proper T/S specs, the specs they give differs from the ones on the frequency graph pictures tested on a LMS system.
I saw those one, but they have low power, and apparently low xmax ... they don't look promising for subwoofer. But I didn't think of adding more than 1 🤔
There's also this:
https://surplustronics.co.nz/products/579-pro-music-woofer-with-aluminium-frame-12-inch
Or some driver from this shop, but they are all low xmax drivers.
http://www.audioshop.co.nz/loudspeakers/loudspeaker1.htm
There's also this:
https://surplustronics.co.nz/products/579-pro-music-woofer-with-aluminium-frame-12-inch
Or some driver from this shop, but they are all low xmax drivers.
http://www.audioshop.co.nz/loudspeakers/loudspeaker1.htm
Hyralex,
The drivers would be better off with a HP filter to limit excursion to around Xmax below 20Hz, no reason to flap the cones.
The Alpine can handle more power than the Rockford, but also note the amplifier power at different impedance. Since the impedance curve is quite high for most of the sub range, the voice coils could be wired in parallel, a nominal 2 ohm rating. Use thick speaker wire to keep the damping factor tight.
Art
Thank you, it's a good feedbak. Was thinking to keep it under 4 ohms, but actually 2 ohms might be better.
For the HP filter, I was thinking to use the DSP of the amplifier. Or would you recommend hard wiring the filter for extra protection?
For the HP filter, I was thinking to use the DSP of the amplifier. Or would you recommend hard wiring the filter for extra protection?
The DSP in the amplifier is the way to go, BW24 around 15Hz.
To make that filter passively (hard wire) would probably cost as much for the four giant coils and capacitors as your amplifier, and lower damping factor by a lot.
To make that filter passively (hard wire) would probably cost as much for the four giant coils and capacitors as your amplifier, and lower damping factor by a lot.
Alright, I received everything. Now I can start building !
I'll measure impedance on the speaker and decide if I run it at 4 or 2 ohms.
I suppose the impedance shouldn't go lower than 2 ohms at any frequency or would the Behringer be fine with it?
I was surprised by how loud is the fan though. I defintely need to put the amp in another room or change the fan ... I understand why people keep speaking about the noise!
I'll measure impedance on the speaker and decide if I run it at 4 or 2 ohms.
I suppose the impedance shouldn't go lower than 2 ohms at any frequency or would the Behringer be fine with it?
I was surprised by how loud is the fan though. I defintely need to put the amp in another room or change the fan ... I understand why people keep speaking about the noise!
The behringers dont like 2ohms, and especially not when in bridged mode where they struggle with 4ohms at higher output levels. Personally Id aim to make the load a minimum of 4 ohms.
The NX-3000D should be fine down to 2 ohms, or four ohms bridged, the equivalent of 2 ohms.
The HP/LP filters reduce current demand where the impedance drops lowest.
Thanks for the feedback.
The driver can actually only run under 2 or 8 ohms. I measured at the speaker 1.9 ohms in parallel and 7.2 ohms in series (which is exactly as defined in the specification). My winisd impedance simulation was wrong because I ran it with only 1 coil (3.6 ohms). I didn't know I needed to run both coils 🤦♂️
I most likely will have enough power for my need to run it at 8 ohms if it is easier on the amp, so I'm not too concerned.
The driver can actually only run under 2 or 8 ohms. I measured at the speaker 1.9 ohms in parallel and 7.2 ohms in series (which is exactly as defined in the specification). My winisd impedance simulation was wrong because I ran it with only 1 coil (3.6 ohms). I didn't know I needed to run both coils 🤦♂️
I most likely will have enough power for my need to run it at 8 ohms if it is easier on the amp, so I'm not too concerned.
Yes, it is an option, but suddenly I need a bigger box! 🙂
But my plan is to have 2 separate subs on the opposite side of the room (if I need it), not 1 sub with 2 drivers 😅
In any case, I'm starting with one sealed box, if I feel like I need more power, I'll either investigate a ported box or add another one in the room and hope that the nx3000d will be enough to drive them both .... if not, I suppose I will have wasted my money and should have bought a bigger amp from the start 😅
But knowing that I already have enough power for my need with my current old low entry sub (Wharfedale SW150), I really think that I'll be able to at least match the same result while also going lower.
But my plan is to have 2 separate subs on the opposite side of the room (if I need it), not 1 sub with 2 drivers 😅
In any case, I'm starting with one sealed box, if I feel like I need more power, I'll either investigate a ported box or add another one in the room and hope that the nx3000d will be enough to drive them both .... if not, I suppose I will have wasted my money and should have bought a bigger amp from the start 😅
But knowing that I already have enough power for my need with my current old low entry sub (Wharfedale SW150), I really think that I'll be able to at least match the same result while also going lower.
The 3000 just about has enough power to run that sub at 8ohms on one channel, and run the other sub off the other channel. Running it at 2ohms (which they dont really like in real world use irrespective of what the specs say) you would only be using about 50% max of its true output of just over 1000 watts rms (not the rated 1500 watt nonsense that behringer quote). It will probably be OK at that loading but if not just rewire the coils in series and run it at 8ohms instead. Perhaps have separate connections to each coil on the back of the box so you can easily swap it about as needed.
You can still run them in parallel, it would just require running longer speaker cables.
If you start equalizing with your DSP, you easily double or ten fold the power to the sub.
Get a measuring microfone and measure your room. You can not predict the frequency response in a room as complicated shaped as yours. This does not mean your room is bad for deep frequency, often odd shaped rooms with openings to other rooms have less problems than simple boxes. The ear is a pretty bad instrument to flaten out low frequency with a DSP. Even a simple microfone is better. If funds allow, get a USB version, it will save your days of fiddeling with sound cards and calibrations. (Dayton Audio or MiniDSP)
You have to see the sub and the room as a unity and adjust acordingly. The Behringer with the DSP, I have a 3000-D too, is a nice amp, but do not expect it as powerfull as 3000 watts sound. It may deliver clean 2x600 W rms at 4 Ohms. Replace the fan with some low noise PC part, they are cheap. Do not run it without a fan. Best may be an adjustable, temperature regulated fan with a temperature probe if you can source one. Otherwise take a low noise adjustable fan and turn it down until you do not hear it from your listening position any more. Good ones still move a lot of air while beeing inaudible from 2 meters away. Do not be too critical, even in stock form my Behringer, placed under the flat screen, does not bother me any more when music is playing or the TV is on. The fan is a good reminder to switch it off after use...
Get a measuring microfone and measure your room. You can not predict the frequency response in a room as complicated shaped as yours. This does not mean your room is bad for deep frequency, often odd shaped rooms with openings to other rooms have less problems than simple boxes. The ear is a pretty bad instrument to flaten out low frequency with a DSP. Even a simple microfone is better. If funds allow, get a USB version, it will save your days of fiddeling with sound cards and calibrations. (Dayton Audio or MiniDSP)
You have to see the sub and the room as a unity and adjust acordingly. The Behringer with the DSP, I have a 3000-D too, is a nice amp, but do not expect it as powerfull as 3000 watts sound. It may deliver clean 2x600 W rms at 4 Ohms. Replace the fan with some low noise PC part, they are cheap. Do not run it without a fan. Best may be an adjustable, temperature regulated fan with a temperature probe if you can source one. Otherwise take a low noise adjustable fan and turn it down until you do not hear it from your listening position any more. Good ones still move a lot of air while beeing inaudible from 2 meters away. Do not be too critical, even in stock form my Behringer, placed under the flat screen, does not bother me any more when music is playing or the TV is on. The fan is a good reminder to switch it off after use...
Thanks. I will use the anthem ARC microphone. Unfortunately the calibration file isn't working with REW, so I'll do a first set of measurement with uncalibrated mic and setup the DSP on the behringer, then I'll use Anthem ARC to do the refinement.
I still need to play around with anthem ARC though, I found that it is removing too much mid range to my liking, so if I don't want to use ARC, I need to get a good EQ on the behringer.
I still need to play around with anthem ARC though, I found that it is removing too much mid range to my liking, so if I don't want to use ARC, I need to get a good EQ on the behringer.