I know there will be opinions on better and/or more economical choices. Putting that aside here is my request for opinion set:
Room: Largish 25'x25'
Amplifier(s): Tube SE ~10-15 or Tube PP 15-25W
Doesn't need to play loud, 85db is plenty for me, value midrange vocals and imaging
Loudspeaker 3
Faital 3WC-15
Both options using Pro drivers.
So apart from the cost difference each option has interesting features:
LSIII, DSP Hypex woofer driver, horn tweeter
3WC-15, Be tweeter!
If I had to choose between the 2, I am leaning to the 3WC-15. What say others?
Room: Largish 25'x25'
Amplifier(s): Tube SE ~10-15 or Tube PP 15-25W
Doesn't need to play loud, 85db is plenty for me, value midrange vocals and imaging
Loudspeaker 3
- Cost (US) $3024
- Compression/Horn tweeter
- Hypex DSP driven woofer
- 92db/2.8v sensitivity
- Nice flattish impedance load to amp
Faital 3WC-15
- Cost (US)$2639
- Satori Be tweeter
- 94db sensitivity
Both options using Pro drivers.
So apart from the cost difference each option has interesting features:
LSIII, DSP Hypex woofer driver, horn tweeter
3WC-15, Be tweeter!
If I had to choose between the 2, I am leaning to the 3WC-15. What say others?
Treat this as a controversial opinion piece but I would not recommend either.
Reason being is that I have never heard a speaker sounding at it's best when driven with substantially less than 1W. That includes anything from very insensitive ones to Klipschorns. To my ears the sweet spot for any speakers lies somewhere between 1 and 10W continuous input.
Reason being is that I have never heard a speaker sounding at it's best when driven with substantially less than 1W. That includes anything from very insensitive ones to Klipschorns. To my ears the sweet spot for any speakers lies somewhere between 1 and 10W continuous input.
Nah, not controversial at all... 🙂
I think I am going with the 3WC-15. Big simple box and conventional 3-way is something in my comfort zone.
I think I am going with the 3WC-15. Big simple box and conventional 3-way is something in my comfort zone.
I'm not exactly experienced with either of these types of designs, but I would be super reluctant of anything that uses an 8" midrange to 1" tweeter without any sort of waveguide. My vote would be strongly in the Loudspeaker 3 camp. 'tis a bit ugly though! 😀
what is the purpose of mounting the medium 8nmb420 non-recessed? it increases the defraction! no ?
Zvu have you heard those speaker,,it is so easy to comment without have listen to them. you can just from see them on paper .tell they are lousy, tsk tsk
and yes i have heard them
and yes i have heard them
I built the 3wc 15". They're awesome. I don't have experience with a lot of high end speakers though so maybe my opinion isn't going to assist. I wanted an efficient large volume enclosure 3 way, had been watching Troels' website for years, so when this design came up, i decided to build them. The bass is something else. Troels mentions "the lightness of bass", I didn't know what he meant until i heard them, there's something very special going on though. i built the non-Be version with the base level caps. Very very happy camper.
Above being said, if cost were no option, probably the TL1 would have been my choice as these are his reference speaker.
The benefit of the TL3 in my opinion is the DSP on the woofer, so you can tune the speakers to the room more easily. The 3wc has the ability to bi-amp, so you could do the same with it but it's a bit more work than having the DSP/amp for the woofer built in.
Above being said, if cost were no option, probably the TL1 would have been my choice as these are his reference speaker.
The benefit of the TL3 in my opinion is the DSP on the woofer, so you can tune the speakers to the room more easily. The 3wc has the ability to bi-amp, so you could do the same with it but it's a bit more work than having the DSP/amp for the woofer built in.
Hello,
if I look at the crossover of the tw29rn tweeter, there is no linearization of the response above 10k. if I understand correctly there is just a high pass at 2800 hz without response correction... this tweeter must be incredibly linear on this front face!
because when you look at its curve on the SBA site, normally you have to correct a little anyway
if I look at the crossover of the tw29rn tweeter, there is no linearization of the response above 10k. if I understand correctly there is just a high pass at 2800 hz without response correction... this tweeter must be incredibly linear on this front face!
because when you look at its curve on the SBA site, normally you have to correct a little anyway
Both Speakers have totally different sound dispersion behavour:
3-Way classic is more traditional hifi-wide-dispersing with conventional dome tweeter, which may be better if you want to fill the whole room with sound during walking around, listening while you are doing other stuff e.g.. Also it will not sound totally neutral but pleasant due to the dispersion step between midrange and tweeter caused by different cone/dome sizes and driver spacing/xover interference which gives a power response drop around 1-3kHz.
I have a similar concept running here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/system-pictures-description.23208/page-177#post-6903491
The LS3 uses compression driver with horn like PA speakers, crossed over to much lower and so will have a more neutral/linear power response of the overall sound field. Also dispersion will be much narrower which can be and advantage in reverberant, acoustically "cold" rooms because wall reflections are stimulated less. But you are more fixed to a dedicated listening position. I personally don't like this.
I think none of them is better or worse, but they will sound very different; The choice and judgement may depent on your room and listening behaviour. And personal taste, of course. Both of them will give you thunderous dynamics, a lot more than ordinary hifi speakers are able to.
BTW: While I very like Troels speaker concepts and craftsmanship in general, I'm not convinced by his xover-philosophy; in my opinion he filters too high, too flat and much too expensive (you can almost buy a pair of Hypex 3-way active DSP modules for the xover component prices).
3-Way classic is more traditional hifi-wide-dispersing with conventional dome tweeter, which may be better if you want to fill the whole room with sound during walking around, listening while you are doing other stuff e.g.. Also it will not sound totally neutral but pleasant due to the dispersion step between midrange and tweeter caused by different cone/dome sizes and driver spacing/xover interference which gives a power response drop around 1-3kHz.
I have a similar concept running here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/system-pictures-description.23208/page-177#post-6903491
The LS3 uses compression driver with horn like PA speakers, crossed over to much lower and so will have a more neutral/linear power response of the overall sound field. Also dispersion will be much narrower which can be and advantage in reverberant, acoustically "cold" rooms because wall reflections are stimulated less. But you are more fixed to a dedicated listening position. I personally don't like this.
I think none of them is better or worse, but they will sound very different; The choice and judgement may depent on your room and listening behaviour. And personal taste, of course. Both of them will give you thunderous dynamics, a lot more than ordinary hifi speakers are able to.
BTW: While I very like Troels speaker concepts and craftsmanship in general, I'm not convinced by his xover-philosophy; in my opinion he filters too high, too flat and much too expensive (you can almost buy a pair of Hypex 3-way active DSP modules for the xover component prices).
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Have i commented the sound ? Please quote me if i have.
I'm all too well aware of personal preferences that are involved in listening a pair of loudspeakers, and influence of room they are in, that i could comment the sound of those loudspeakers if i haven't had a chance to listen them in my room or in a well treated one.
I commented on measurable, technical stuff that is missing and it bugs me since you have to throw 3000 bucks on it.
-There is not one frequency response measurement that involves woofer and its interaction with midrange.
-No off axis frequency response, horizontal nor vertical
-No distortion measurements
-No waterfall measurements
Every loudspeaker needs to have those as a personal ID so we could discern if the loudspeaker is flawed in the first place - before throwing couple of thousand euros on it preferably. It it fulfils -correct working order- criteria, then you can go and have a listen to decide if you like the sound or not.
Here's an example of how it should be done if it is to be taken seriously:
So i stand by my claim that they are VERY lousy documented and under engineered. Ugly looking is just a bonus for them imo.
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do you really think good measure tell how a speaker will work, Troels also write that people take to much care about measure, you can not tell how a speaker sound only with measurement
and i can tell you the measurement it not bad i have owned the LS1 and have take time to measure, even tryed to change driver, where the measure was better,, but sound was not so good
this is my last word to this tread
and i can tell you the measurement it not bad i have owned the LS1 and have take time to measure, even tryed to change driver, where the measure was better,, but sound was not so good
this is my last word to this tread
Not sure where i wrote that by watching measurements alone you can know how a loudspeaker sounds. Please quote me for that statement too.
I never read what Troels writes about sound before i see a good set of measurements. If he has not provided them, then i don't read at all what he wrote. I can find such subjective mumbo jumbo on WHF, 6moons and other portals.
In my experience it goes like this:
If a loudspeaker measures well, it CAN sound well.
If a loudspeaker measures bad, it WILL sound bad.
Simple as that.
I don't know what LS1 is but changing drivers and keeping the same crossover circuit will almost never yield an optimum performance - therefore i'm not surprised with result you've got.
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There is an element of truth in this but it is based on a fallacy.. Once upon a time many people recognised that even if you EQ, there is something about a speaker that doesn't change, and I agree with this. It is a sound which is more than just what the measurement tells. Later, I think it helped when people started using signal processing to get flat responses but the speakers were still bad, because it showed that a response plot wasn't very helpful.
There is still more than just measurements... but now a different kind of measurement is used more often, and there is a special way to read the information. It is also information which can help decide the differences between speakers.
If you want to use listening tests instead, that is OK because you can get 'some' of the information that way.
It s difficult to equalize HP. I have 8nmb420 and 8m400 mediums. I would like to cut them LR24 at 200 and 2000 (or 2800). I equalize (activ) flat before the high pass and the low pass and it never sounds good. I must using too much EQ 😉
On the passiv crossover of the 8nmb420 in the faital 3wc15, there are a not much equalization. it's a shame that troel does not explain what he linearized, with R8, C4, L4
On the passiv crossover of the 8nmb420 in the faital 3wc15, there are a not much equalization. it's a shame that troel does not explain what he linearized, with R8, C4, L4
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sorry i am not perfekt to english, so i will stop here
but i will tell.. i always measure and simulate filter for my speaker,, and then change component to i get the right sound,, and this is not always the best measure,, but the sound blend together with my room and hardware
i have also tried dsp to give my perfect measure in my room.. but i always thing the sound is not right,
so i will still say ....measure is not everything...
but i will tell.. i always measure and simulate filter for my speaker,, and then change component to i get the right sound,, and this is not always the best measure,, but the sound blend together with my room and hardware
i have also tried dsp to give my perfect measure in my room.. but i always thing the sound is not right,
so i will still say ....measure is not everything...