I want to make a violin amp, that will consist of an encosure with single channel amp (a 60 watt class D amp) with one or two full range drivers.
Given that the lowest note of a violin is 196 Hz, I beleive that interesting compromises can be made.
I think a drivers is a good choice, because "lack of bass" will not be a problem, and small drivers tend to have better directivity.
Here is my list of candidate drivers so far:
The problem is that I have heard none of them, so I am only discriminating by specs, and the critiques I have read.
Idealy I would try and hear them all, but I thought I could perhaps get recommendations from this group, and if the list can be shortened further, perhaps I can order the best two or three and do listening test !
Given that the lowest note of a violin is 196 Hz, I beleive that interesting compromises can be made.
I think a drivers is a good choice, because "lack of bass" will not be a problem, and small drivers tend to have better directivity.
Here is my list of candidate drivers so far:
- Tang Band W4-1320SJ https://www.parts-express.com/Tang-Band-W4-1879-4-Full-Range-Driver-264-903
- Tang Band W4-1879 https://www.parts-express.com/Tang-Band-W4-1320SJ-4-Bamboo-Cone-Driver-264-847
- Seas FU10RB H1600 https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-fullrange/seas-prestige-fu10rb-h1600-08-4-full-range/
- Faital FaitalPRO 4FE32 https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-4FE32-4-Neodymium-Professional-Woofer-16-Ohm-294-1122
- LaVoce FSN041 https://www.parts-express.com/LaVoce-FSN041.00-4-Neodymium-Full-Range-Woofer-8-Ohm-293-711
The problem is that I have heard none of them, so I am only discriminating by specs, and the critiques I have read.
Idealy I would try and hear them all, but I thought I could perhaps get recommendations from this group, and if the list can be shortened further, perhaps I can order the best two or three and do listening test !
The best full range drivers I've heard at reproducing violins were lowthers, mostly dx3 and dx4 but any 8" lowther should do well.
If you put the lowther in a front loaded horn, with about a 2 ft square mouth tractrix horn, it will sound very good.
At the other end of the price spectrum............
I am using a Monacor sp205. It looks like a joke, but open baffle, (which I would recommend for any driver) it really startles at it's reproduction of Violin. It is very directional though, you need to be fairly central to it.
I was a professional violinist for 42 years, and I really like this driver. It needs playing in, and has a lot of presence. It will not produce anything below 80 Hz which is why it is hardly considered for full range use.
At the other end of the price spectrum............
I am using a Monacor sp205. It looks like a joke, but open baffle, (which I would recommend for any driver) it really startles at it's reproduction of Violin. It is very directional though, you need to be fairly central to it.
I was a professional violinist for 42 years, and I really like this driver. It needs playing in, and has a lot of presence. It will not produce anything below 80 Hz which is why it is hardly considered for full range use.
Although I have no MI speaker experience, I'll chip in for the sake of conversation because I find the topic interesting.
Even though 196Hz can be reproduced fairly well in by certain smaller driver and enclosure combinations, I think that a larger cone area could offer "fuller" sound to your lower register. I see online that the highest note would be mid-3kHz, so I guess at least one extra octave above would be required for harmonics, if not more.
Perhaps an 8" Fostex could do decently without breaking the bank. There are also a number of pro 8"-15" fullrange drivers available. You then have to consider beaming as the driver gets larger. Perhaps a coaxial would make a decent compromise, likely with higher power handling.
From your listed drivers, I can only say that the Tang Band 1320 beams more than you'd expect for a 4", though I haven't measured how much and can't say how it would affect your instrument's range.
Even though 196Hz can be reproduced fairly well in by certain smaller driver and enclosure combinations, I think that a larger cone area could offer "fuller" sound to your lower register. I see online that the highest note would be mid-3kHz, so I guess at least one extra octave above would be required for harmonics, if not more.
Perhaps an 8" Fostex could do decently without breaking the bank. There are also a number of pro 8"-15" fullrange drivers available. You then have to consider beaming as the driver gets larger. Perhaps a coaxial would make a decent compromise, likely with higher power handling.
From your listed drivers, I can only say that the Tang Band 1320 beams more than you'd expect for a 4", though I haven't measured how much and can't say how it would affect your instrument's range.
Maybe you should say something about the intended use and application. Size of "room" / audience etc?
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Thank you all the great answers !
I will give more details about the intended use.
The purpose is to amplify a violin in a band where there are a few brass instruments (1Tuba, 2 trombones, 2 trumpets), as well as other instruments: an accordeon, a clarinet, a banjo, and 2 percussions.
In most of the gigs, amplification is provided by mic clips, a mixer and a PA, and the amp a I want to build is NOT for this kind of scenario.
The amp is for scenarios where the band plays in marching formation, or in smaller events, where it is too troublesome to have a sound guy with all the equipment. In this scenario, only the violin is amplified. This is where size matters: having a "wearable" amp would be nice, i.e. a box that could be attached on a belt, or possibly two boxes pointing in two directions (or perhaps even four boxes, etc).
While I'm going to the trouble of making such an amp, I figured I might as well make the amp more general purpose, for cases when the violinist plays in a small ensemble with a guitar and a bass. In the typical scenario where each instrument has it's own amp.
So the small size is almost a "hard" pre requisite, perhaps 4" drivers is going too far, but size is definitely something I want to optimize for.
Single channel is another hard pre requiste, I like to simplicity of not having to design a crossover.
I also must say that the Tang Band W4-1879 is about the upper range of my budget. If I could "hear before I buy" I'd be willing to go higher, perhaps much higher, but there is a significant risk that the amp ends up not sounding so good in the end, and I'm doing the project as a hobby.
I will give more details about the intended use.
The purpose is to amplify a violin in a band where there are a few brass instruments (1Tuba, 2 trombones, 2 trumpets), as well as other instruments: an accordeon, a clarinet, a banjo, and 2 percussions.
In most of the gigs, amplification is provided by mic clips, a mixer and a PA, and the amp a I want to build is NOT for this kind of scenario.
The amp is for scenarios where the band plays in marching formation, or in smaller events, where it is too troublesome to have a sound guy with all the equipment. In this scenario, only the violin is amplified. This is where size matters: having a "wearable" amp would be nice, i.e. a box that could be attached on a belt, or possibly two boxes pointing in two directions (or perhaps even four boxes, etc).
While I'm going to the trouble of making such an amp, I figured I might as well make the amp more general purpose, for cases when the violinist plays in a small ensemble with a guitar and a bass. In the typical scenario where each instrument has it's own amp.
So the small size is almost a "hard" pre requisite, perhaps 4" drivers is going too far, but size is definitely something I want to optimize for.
Single channel is another hard pre requiste, I like to simplicity of not having to design a crossover.
I also must say that the Tang Band W4-1879 is about the upper range of my budget. If I could "hear before I buy" I'd be willing to go higher, perhaps much higher, but there is a significant risk that the amp ends up not sounding so good in the end, and I'm doing the project as a hobby.
Car speakers, old car amp. No need for hi fi in the open.
Or 7297/ 3116 BTL connected to drive mono output.
12V , 7 - 12 AH battery. Or similar lithium battery.
Or 7297/ 3116 BTL connected to drive mono output.
12V , 7 - 12 AH battery. Or similar lithium battery.
The G string of a violin produces very few fundamentals, the first overtone (an octave higher) is a bigger part of the reproduction. Seems weird, but there it is.
The overtones can go up further than 5 octaves. You ideally want to produce a response as high as possible.
Will you be using multiple drivers pointing in different directions? If so when marching, then small closed boxes, with 4, or even 3 inch drivers will work. Many 3 or 4 inch drivers in a small enclosed box will get down to 196Hz. There is less energy in higher frequencies, and so the speaker, and amp are less stressed when not producing bass.
I have used the Faital Pro 4 Fe32 and have to say there is a sting in the sound from a high frequency resonance. This is not good for the violin. The 3fe32 is smoother at the top end.
I can see why you want the amplification. A violin is simply out gunned by those other instruments. Good luck.
The overtones can go up further than 5 octaves. You ideally want to produce a response as high as possible.
Will you be using multiple drivers pointing in different directions? If so when marching, then small closed boxes, with 4, or even 3 inch drivers will work. Many 3 or 4 inch drivers in a small enclosed box will get down to 196Hz. There is less energy in higher frequencies, and so the speaker, and amp are less stressed when not producing bass.
I have used the Faital Pro 4 Fe32 and have to say there is a sting in the sound from a high frequency resonance. This is not good for the violin. The 3fe32 is smoother at the top end.
I can see why you want the amplification. A violin is simply out gunned by those other instruments. Good luck.
I think it's mainly important to have a fullrange with as little resonances and as wide dispertion as possible that can reach a decent volume in open air. A line array type of box with a lot of smaller drivers is probally the best for this as they don't beam as much as big drivers and have resonances way higher (probally out of the passband of the instrument). The Faital 3FE32 would also be my first choice for this, or maybe the Beyma 4FR40ND. Put 4 as close as possible next to each other in a box (series/parallel config) and you will have a good sound i think, that can loud enough for outside concerts and is relative durable in worse conditions.
The TB's are not made for outside, wind and rain will damage them, and sun probally also. And they will beam way to much for this use. The Lavove and Seas have heavy resonances in critical frequency zones for violin so it will mess up the sound.
The TB's are not made for outside, wind and rain will damage them, and sun probally also. And they will beam way to much for this use. The Lavove and Seas have heavy resonances in critical frequency zones for violin so it will mess up the sound.
Thanks, that is very helpful info.
About "resonance in the critical frequency zone", is that interpreted from the specs ? Can you explain to me how to interpret this from specs ?
When you see large (5-15 dB) "peaks" in the level vs frequency response chart, it is a sign of a resonance.
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I have tried to deal with full range drivers until I gave up on "wide band" and tried to use them for midranges, eventually giving up on that.
There are reasons we have different midranges and tweeters. Good reasons following the laws of physics.
What drivers and what amplifier you need depend on the venue. Inside or outside? OB, sorry, no the best choice unless in a very specific environment.
There are reasons we have different midranges and tweeters. Good reasons following the laws of physics.
What drivers and what amplifier you need depend on the venue. Inside or outside? OB, sorry, no the best choice unless in a very specific environment.
I don't have a lot of experience making speakers, but I made some with these that I like a lot. My priorities were good dispersion and fine detail and I was willing to compromise on bass, which sounds similar to what you're looking for. These have aluminum cones, so pistonic for quite a while, there is a big resonance just above 20khz. Sensitivity is low, not sure how that impacts your use.
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Peerless/TA6FD00
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Peerless/TA6FD00
My thoughts are similar. Speakers in the range of 3" - 4" will cover the frequency spectrum you're after (i.e. 200 Hz - 5 kHz) quite well.
Most speakers in this size range will go up another octave or two above 5 KHz, but expect the frequency response to start to get increasingly ragged up there. The very highest overtones from your instrument won't be perfectly reproduced, but the goal is to get good-enough sound combined with small size and adequate loudness, and I think this is the way to get there.
This is also the right speaker size to get reasonable dispersion. My rule of thumb is that you will get reasonable dispersion up to roughly the frequency at which the sound wavelength equals the speaker diameter, or a bit more. With a 4" (10 cm) speaker, that means good dispersion up to around 4 kHz.
Pick a driver with a relatively high sensitivity (so it makes a lot of volume with relatively few watts), and fairly high power handling ability. Pick a driver with a relatively flat response between 200 Hz and 3 kHz, so it doesn't colour the sound of your violin too much. Pick relatively inexpensive drivers, so you can afford two or four.
Small, cheap, stereo class D power amplifier boards can drive two or four speakers. For example, you could use four 8-ohm speakers, wired in two groups, each group being two drivers in parallel to make a 4 ohm load. A stereo class-D board can drive both groups, one connected to each of the two channels in the amplifier.
If you power the board with a 5-cell lithium battery (typically 21 volts when fully charged), you will get a maximum clean output around 50 watts out of each channel, or 25 watts into each of the 4 drivers.
You can drive the same amount of power into only two 4-ohm speakers (instead of two groups of two paralleled 8-ohm speakers), but I think it will be harder to find little 3" or 4" speakers that can cope gracefully with 50 watts of power each, without burning up, or rattling themselves to death.
Then again, maybe you don't need 105 dB SPL; Using only two drivers makes for a smaller, lighter load to carry, and if you halve the amplifier power, your battery will last twice as long, and SPL only falls by 3 dB. A rather slight drop.
It isn't hard to find drivers in this size range with sensitivity around 85 dB@1W@1m. With 25 watts into each of 4 drivers, the quartet should be able to produce 100 dB - 105 dB SPL at 1 metre. That is very, very loud close to the box; though outdoors, volume falls away rapidly with distance.
IMO, two-inch drivers with 82 dB @1W sensitivity are definitely not what you want. Sensitivity is bad, and a speaker that small will not be able to generate the SPL you want at the low end of the violin frequency range. Think about the vibrating area of the top of your violin - how tiny a 2" speaker is compared to that!
Open-baffle speakers are popular with a tiny minority of afflicted people on DIY forums, but they perform extremely poorly, which is why you don't find them in any practical application, only on DIY forums and "woo-woo" high-end, high-insanity audiophile sites. By all means stay away from open-baffle speakers for your project - in fact, my recommendation is to put your fingers in your ears, and say "la la la la" to yourself, while smiling and nodding politely in the direction of the unfortunate open-baffle victim trying to get you to join him in his affliction. 🙂
I took a gander at some speakers available from Digikey.com, and I'm attaching datasheets for a Visaton FR 10 HMP, a 4" full-range speaker with a "whizzer" cone, and a Visaton dx10, also a 4", this time with an integrated tweeter. Both are 4-ohm speakers.
From the datasheets you can see that:
1) The cone is waterproof (plastic).
2) The frequency response is reasonably flat from 196 Hz Hz to 5 kHz, which will cover all the fundamentals and most of the harmonics from a violin.
3) The frequency response extends out to 15 kHz and beyond, though there are ripples and irregularities above 5 kHz.
4) Dispersion is quite good up to 4 kHz, deteriorating above that.
4) Sensitivity is 86 dB / 88 dB respectively.
5) Both these speakers were designed for automotive use, meaning they are designed to tolerate a wide range of temperatures without the cones warping or the glues letting go. These are good qualities if they are going to get taken outdoors on sunny summer days and cold winter days.
6) Power handling is 20W and 50W respectively. 20 W into a speaker with 86 dB sensitivity produces 99 dB SPL. 50 W into a speaker with 88 dB sensitivity produces 105 dB SPL. These little guys can get pretty loud!
7) Because they were designed to mount in car doors and parcel shelves, these speakers are also designed to provide proper bass without having a carefully controlled volume of air trapped behind them. In other words, they are forgiving of enclosure size - its not critical, as long as it's not way too small.
8) The first of these (FR 10 HMP) only costs $10 each at Digikey.com. The second (DX10) costs much more, comparable to some of the drivers you listed in your first post ($42 each).
I'm not saying these are the perfect speakers for your project, but I think they are certainly viable candidates worth considering.
-Gnobuddy
See my post, #7, I gave a low cost easy solution to the same problem.
You can hack a baby carrier to make a structure, if you intend to wear it.
Use water proof material like foam board to make the box.
You can also modify a sound bar, if it has decent size speakers, as described above.
You can hack a baby carrier to make a structure, if you intend to wear it.
Use water proof material like foam board to make the box.
You can also modify a sound bar, if it has decent size speakers, as described above.
Well, I have actually designed and built Violin amps (and Sax - Flute - Accordion - you-name-it) including the WEIRD instruments used by Les Luthiers.
It being a combo amp, which must be loud - portable - light as described, forget horns, Hi Fi speakers and large cabinets.
I suggest the Faital speakers, they are quite extended range and more efficient than regular Hi Fi speakers, they tend more to the PA area or go straight to PA ones.
Would use 4" minimum; even better if 5" or 6" are available covering that range.
Small diameter pistons "reach low" ... by moving longer, basic Geometry.
Which means looonnnggg voice coils, longer than the gap which means no magnetic field out there and losing a lot of efficiency.
If possible, choose most efficient ones, "portable" Watts are expensive, not on Electronics but on portable supplies feeding them (batteries) which you will have to carry yourself.
If present, beaming and aggresiveness are a BONUS in live sound, when you fight loud aggressive instruments which, to boot, use efficient aggressive speakers themselves; "they" are defining the fight rules, not you.
The speakers you found on first try, have low sensitivity , 82 dB 😱 to 87 dB the best one, which carries a nosebleed price tag (U$250) in exchange for nothing useful here.
Bamboo cones indeed!!! 😱
I picked 3 LOUD EFFICIENT PA class speakers which will make you heard (95-96-99dB):
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-6FE200-6-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1152
https://www.parts-express.com/B-C-5MDN38-5-Professional-Neodymium-Midrange-Speaker-8-Ohm-294-5900
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-M5N8-80-5-Neodymium-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1142
You can make a backpack style cabinet, with straps and back cushioning , angled "front panel" which here will point backwards, of course, and a battery pack in the bottom.
PS: forget Home Hi Fi here, you are playing a Musical Instrument in a street band, or fighting loud Rock instruments; niceties get lost if you are drowned.
PS2: as a sobering Reality Check: if you play outside or at a large venue, your Violin will be amplified through the place´s PA.
Guess what kind of midrange speakers will be used inside of those large stacks or Line Arrays. 🙂
It being a combo amp, which must be loud - portable - light as described, forget horns, Hi Fi speakers and large cabinets.
I suggest the Faital speakers, they are quite extended range and more efficient than regular Hi Fi speakers, they tend more to the PA area or go straight to PA ones.
Would use 4" minimum; even better if 5" or 6" are available covering that range.
Small diameter pistons "reach low" ... by moving longer, basic Geometry.
Which means looonnnggg voice coils, longer than the gap which means no magnetic field out there and losing a lot of efficiency.
If possible, choose most efficient ones, "portable" Watts are expensive, not on Electronics but on portable supplies feeding them (batteries) which you will have to carry yourself.
If present, beaming and aggresiveness are a BONUS in live sound, when you fight loud aggressive instruments which, to boot, use efficient aggressive speakers themselves; "they" are defining the fight rules, not you.
The speakers you found on first try, have low sensitivity , 82 dB 😱 to 87 dB the best one, which carries a nosebleed price tag (U$250) in exchange for nothing useful here.
Bamboo cones indeed!!! 😱
I picked 3 LOUD EFFICIENT PA class speakers which will make you heard (95-96-99dB):
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-6FE200-6-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1152
https://www.parts-express.com/B-C-5MDN38-5-Professional-Neodymium-Midrange-Speaker-8-Ohm-294-5900
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-M5N8-80-5-Neodymium-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1142
You can make a backpack style cabinet, with straps and back cushioning , angled "front panel" which here will point backwards, of course, and a battery pack in the bottom.
PS: forget Home Hi Fi here, you are playing a Musical Instrument in a street band, or fighting loud Rock instruments; niceties get lost if you are drowned.
PS2: as a sobering Reality Check: if you play outside or at a large venue, your Violin will be amplified through the place´s PA.
Guess what kind of midrange speakers will be used inside of those large stacks or Line Arrays. 🙂
Thanks, these are great advices !
I have already ordered a pair of https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401000101
But the temptation is strong to try out your suggested drivers !