Hello all, new to this forum.
I'm trying to compare car speakers from different vendors to upgrade my current in-dash Pioneers, but although they provide us SPL curves along the bandwitdth specs, I haven't found similar detailed information from other manufacturers, say JBL and Kicker. My goal is to improve frequency response (Sensitivity/loudness is secondary).
My current speakers' specs are: 35Hz to 30KHz, which sounds impressive until you notice they consider 20dB drop for that (from 86dB avg to 66dB). But if we look the SPL plot and take, for example, 10db below average, we obtain a more realistic BW of 60Hz to 22KHz.
The JBL's and Kicker's I'm evaluating are speficied from 75Hz to 21KHz and 60Hz to 20KHz respectively, but not a clue of how many dBs below the average that means for them, so I'm not sure if we're comparing apples with apples. Does somebody knows, or where to find such details and/or graphs?
I'm trying to compare car speakers from different vendors to upgrade my current in-dash Pioneers, but although they provide us SPL curves along the bandwitdth specs, I haven't found similar detailed information from other manufacturers, say JBL and Kicker. My goal is to improve frequency response (Sensitivity/loudness is secondary).
My current speakers' specs are: 35Hz to 30KHz, which sounds impressive until you notice they consider 20dB drop for that (from 86dB avg to 66dB). But if we look the SPL plot and take, for example, 10db below average, we obtain a more realistic BW of 60Hz to 22KHz.
The JBL's and Kicker's I'm evaluating are speficied from 75Hz to 21KHz and 60Hz to 20KHz respectively, but not a clue of how many dBs below the average that means for them, so I'm not sure if we're comparing apples with apples. Does somebody knows, or where to find such details and/or graphs?
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For the most part, the published response curves are useless... The numbers published with no curves are less than useless. That's from my experience.
The curves that are published for better quality drivers are more reliable. To see examples, try the drivers available at Parts express.
https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-components/hi-fi-woofers-subwoofers-midranges-tweeters
The curves that are published for better quality drivers are more reliable. To see examples, try the drivers available at Parts express.
https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-components/hi-fi-woofers-subwoofers-midranges-tweeters
You only care about the response INSTALLED. Published numbers ( advertisement) are useless. Raw driver curves, like the ones posted for PE are only a little help to someone designing a system. They do not tell you much at all about how they perform installed. Proper design requires measurement in-situ.
You say "improve frequency response" What do you mean? Is the balance . i.e. equalization incorrect? Do you not have enough high end? Not enough bottom end?
FWIW, I have always found Pioneer car speakers to be the best overall balanced. Upper lines of course.
35 Hz in a car? Insane. Do you listen to heavy organ? 35 Hz is what we get using large subwoofers and big amps. Darn physics.
But some 6 1/2 in the door and decent tweeters can do a solid 60 up and that is all you need for 99.9% of all music unless you are looking to do sound levels that will damage our hearing, and then you don't need an upgrade anyway.
The JBL and kicker numbers are more realistic if a 6 1/2 drivers. The only standard you can trust in response curves is they are a lie. If high end home audio is a bottle of snake oil, car stereo ( and the dealers) are a tanker full. Maybe in your town you can find a competent, and as a bonus, honest, car stereo installer that can give you better specifics for your car and what you think you want to hear, and how much money you have.
You say "improve frequency response" What do you mean? Is the balance . i.e. equalization incorrect? Do you not have enough high end? Not enough bottom end?
FWIW, I have always found Pioneer car speakers to be the best overall balanced. Upper lines of course.
35 Hz in a car? Insane. Do you listen to heavy organ? 35 Hz is what we get using large subwoofers and big amps. Darn physics.
But some 6 1/2 in the door and decent tweeters can do a solid 60 up and that is all you need for 99.9% of all music unless you are looking to do sound levels that will damage our hearing, and then you don't need an upgrade anyway.
The JBL and kicker numbers are more realistic if a 6 1/2 drivers. The only standard you can trust in response curves is they are a lie. If high end home audio is a bottle of snake oil, car stereo ( and the dealers) are a tanker full. Maybe in your town you can find a competent, and as a bonus, honest, car stereo installer that can give you better specifics for your car and what you think you want to hear, and how much money you have.
You can get a boost of about 20dB at the lowest end of the spectrum from cabin gain (transfer function), depending on the vehicle and speaker placement.
about the question:
Serious Speaker Manufactures normally set the boarders at -3dB and / or clearly communicate the dB at boarders.
Example:
https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g
not about the question:
this value says pretty much nothing about the quality of a speaker.
Even if a speaker really reaches 30 kHz, it doenst help, since you can probably only hear up to 14 kHz (depending on your age).
Serious Speaker Manufactures normally set the boarders at -3dB and / or clearly communicate the dB at boarders.
Example:
https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g
not about the question:
this value says pretty much nothing about the quality of a speaker.
Even if a speaker really reaches 30 kHz, it doenst help, since you can probably only hear up to 14 kHz (depending on your age).
Yet yet the aberrant behaviour of many metal dome tweeters with sever resonances in the 26-30kHz region is clearly audible in the sound of symbols and high-hats, etc, because intermodulation distortion components lie either side of the fundamental's frequency and are aliased into the audio band.
Thanks for all the answers.
I have a Kenwood CD player with a 3-band parametric equalizer, so these years it had helped me to obtain a better balance of sound inside my SUV, but given the fact the in-dash speakers are mere 4 inches I have allways missed some more bass, and that's why I am looking for beter speakers than the mid-tier Pioneers I have had, and/or perhaps adding some foam baffles to try to tune the response.
Anyways, looking at the speakers available on the market versus the ones I have, when I look at the SPL graph for it, I can tell the response of the speaker alone (anechoic room) drops 10dB below 60Hz, and for me that's a lot. So that's why my original question, because nobody wants to buy many speakers, install it, shake the head, install other, etc. until find a reasonable good one. I think it would be good to have more complete information than "60 to 20K", because without refferring how many dB are involved in that statement, I agree that information doesn't is not so useful, but at least the manufacturer is telling us "forget about <60Hz" in this case.
In other words, if one vendor tells me "this speaker support 60Hz (-10dB)", and other tells me "this speaker support 60Hz (-20dB)" I choose the first one, and then figure out the enclosure stuff.
And I too have read "-3dB" for enclosed speakers, but still wondering whether such figure exists for the individual speakers.
I have a Kenwood CD player with a 3-band parametric equalizer, so these years it had helped me to obtain a better balance of sound inside my SUV, but given the fact the in-dash speakers are mere 4 inches I have allways missed some more bass, and that's why I am looking for beter speakers than the mid-tier Pioneers I have had, and/or perhaps adding some foam baffles to try to tune the response.
Anyways, looking at the speakers available on the market versus the ones I have, when I look at the SPL graph for it, I can tell the response of the speaker alone (anechoic room) drops 10dB below 60Hz, and for me that's a lot. So that's why my original question, because nobody wants to buy many speakers, install it, shake the head, install other, etc. until find a reasonable good one. I think it would be good to have more complete information than "60 to 20K", because without refferring how many dB are involved in that statement, I agree that information doesn't is not so useful, but at least the manufacturer is telling us "forget about <60Hz" in this case.
In other words, if one vendor tells me "this speaker support 60Hz (-10dB)", and other tells me "this speaker support 60Hz (-20dB)" I choose the first one, and then figure out the enclosure stuff.
And I too have read "-3dB" for enclosed speakers, but still wondering whether such figure exists for the individual speakers.
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FWIW regarding the graph and specs, I moved the axis to the nominal sensitivity level and zoomed in, for the speakers I currently have and the new model the vendor offer for the same series.
As you can see, although the claims of "35Hz to 30KHz (-20dB)" or "35Hz to 27KHz (-20dB)" are (legally) not a lie, it can be considered misleading as 20dB is a big loss to compensate with the equalizer and the acoustics. The bright side I see on this is with the graphs I can tell in reality how much I can put out of these little speakers (around 60Hz to 20KHz (-10dB) and then work with the eq and enclosures), and I can also tell I wouldn't replace the old Pioneer model with the new one, I definitively would choose another brand name or a higher-tier. And that's why I asked here whether someone knows where to find some graphs for other bare speakers, or at least to know how many dB they are considering when they tell us its frequency range, because "60Hz to 20KHz (unkown dB)" doesn't allow us to compare before buy.
As you can see, although the claims of "35Hz to 30KHz (-20dB)" or "35Hz to 27KHz (-20dB)" are (legally) not a lie, it can be considered misleading as 20dB is a big loss to compensate with the equalizer and the acoustics. The bright side I see on this is with the graphs I can tell in reality how much I can put out of these little speakers (around 60Hz to 20KHz (-10dB) and then work with the eq and enclosures), and I can also tell I wouldn't replace the old Pioneer model with the new one, I definitively would choose another brand name or a higher-tier. And that's why I asked here whether someone knows where to find some graphs for other bare speakers, or at least to know how many dB they are considering when they tell us its frequency range, because "60Hz to 20KHz (unkown dB)" doesn't allow us to compare before buy.
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There is no standard. If the manufacturer doesn't quote a tolerance, it's simply made up. Pioneer used to be the worst offender (outside of flea-market brands) for quoting spec's that were well beyond optimistic. Frequency response quotes and graphs are useless information, and has been that way for decades. The graphs are nothing more than a colorful technical-looking decoration for the box- please convince yourself to ignore them.
Listen to the speakers in the showroom and listen to a demo car to get clues. Of course, they won't sound the same in your car, too many variables. If you can find more than one store that has them on display, even better. Look at the build quality, and don't get hung up on price. Some of the best sounding full range car speakers I've heard were not top of the line models. Ask installers what they like, they get to spend more time with more speakers in real-life situations than anyone else in the shop.
Wait... I just re-read the original post. These are dash speakers? What size?
My current dash speakers are 4 inches coax, placed facing the knees of the driver and passenger. The space around is very limited.
Where I live there are not demo-rooms, the offer is very limited, the labour costs are way exagerated, and most of the so-called technicians are questionable. That's why I'm trying to do the homework on paper before buying online and shipping overseas.
If I put the numbers and graphs aside, the only useful information I've found are the remarkable sound tests of Crutchfield (on their anechoic chamber), hence I've reduced my choices to a handful of speakers, and a set of foam baffles to try tune the response.
Where I live there are not demo-rooms, the offer is very limited, the labour costs are way exagerated, and most of the so-called technicians are questionable. That's why I'm trying to do the homework on paper before buying online and shipping overseas.
If I put the numbers and graphs aside, the only useful information I've found are the remarkable sound tests of Crutchfield (on their anechoic chamber), hence I've reduced my choices to a handful of speakers, and a set of foam baffles to try tune the response.
Unfortunately, that is the reality of what you are reduced to. Having the speakers in-dash with no enclosure and facing the knees at 60 degrees off-axis further compounds the situation. So if the Crutchfield tests are made far off-axis, you may find a small amount of correlation with what you would hear in your car. They should measure them in-car for a more relevant plot.
I'm sorry to sound so negative, I'm just trying to help you with realistic expectations.
These are the types of issues that brought expensive pro audio tools like parametric equalizers and spectrum analyzers into car audio decades ago.
A better, but more expensive solution is to use a separate tweeter that can be placed in a situation that's closer to on-axis.
I'm sorry to sound so negative, I'm just trying to help you with realistic expectations.
These are the types of issues that brought expensive pro audio tools like parametric equalizers and spectrum analyzers into car audio decades ago.
A better, but more expensive solution is to use a separate tweeter that can be placed in a situation that's closer to on-axis.