What you're doing is talking about it. You're not actually doing anything. This is your issue overall and why I recognized you. With everything you do (and I mean everything) you seem to need to get validation and approval from others before you do it. Screw what a Canadian, an Indian, and a Swiss tech have to say about morality or what you should or shouldn't do in terms of your time and an amplifier that currently belongs to you. Don't let strangers on the internet dictate what you choose to do.
you can do work on an amplifier and sell it as-is. You know this. How is a Canadian going to possibly know more about California law than you do? You live here. If a used car guy can sell a terrible vehicle with an as-is on the contract and there be no recourse, is there really a real risk of doing a little work on an amplifier and selling it with an honest accounting of who you are and what you did? Likely not. But is there some level of risk? Sure. If you mention in your listing that a qualified tech should look at the amplifier before use, that's helpful too. If you sell the amplifier claiming it was serviced without any disclaimer, that would be dishonest. If you just say as-is with no other disclosures, that would be dishonest too of course.
Go check out Uncle Doug on YouTube. He's probably the best for teaching the basics. He has many videos and the answers to any questions you have can be found in other videos. As far as this thread, just let it die.
I learn a lot by asking questions. So I ask a lot of them. I’ve also been doing work this whole time. Many of the responses in this very thread have set my direction and next steps. But you’re right that I get bogged down wanting strangers to “understand” me, or, as it feels to me in the moment, wanting to figure out what the heck they are talking about. Really I need to just let these things go, because they are not important.
Thanks for jumping in. I really, honestly do appreciate it. I need to do some thinking on how not to bait perfectly nice people into arguments over nothing.
Happy Thanksgiving
Thanks for jumping in. I really, honestly do appreciate it. I need to do some thinking on how not to bait perfectly nice people into arguments over nothing.
Happy Thanksgiving
Don't take it to heart. People who feel the need to make personal attacks in a forum likely do so because they can't express a point of view on the strength of their knowledge. I gave my advise here: #11 and felt that was blunt, but others have express similar views which is reassuring to me at least. In any case, we are all responsible for our own actions and you for yours, but you are not responsible for other peoples' behaviour.
Thank you. It's hard expressing opinions on the internet. I as much as anyone understands that. I've taken your advice to heart, as have I the general tone. I'll certainly do everything in my power to do right with the sale of this amp, and for the buyer. I've been burned on amps that needed ~$1,000 worth of work after receipt, and I would hate for that to happen to someone else with something I sold. Cheers.
Here in India we do not need to make a bill of sale even for cars.
Just a MV Department form, owners sign, saying I sold the car to entity above, individual or company.
Only for houses, because the duty is proportional, do we need to mention the amount.
So, if the item is sold for cash, without a paper trail, the buyer has little recourse.
Now with old cell phones, the buyers insist on the box and original bill copy, as a lot get stolen, and come up for sale.
California is famous for high damages, and a suit could bankrupt you and put you in jail.
So sell it as is, without any form of assurance as to its working condition.
Or learn another trade, like selling stocks, or real estate, where the laws and legal precedents are very well documented.
This is not a very lucrative or growing line of business, if you intend that. Used cars is more lucrative, among others that may suit your budget or abilities.
Just a MV Department form, owners sign, saying I sold the car to entity above, individual or company.
Only for houses, because the duty is proportional, do we need to mention the amount.
So, if the item is sold for cash, without a paper trail, the buyer has little recourse.
Now with old cell phones, the buyers insist on the box and original bill copy, as a lot get stolen, and come up for sale.
California is famous for high damages, and a suit could bankrupt you and put you in jail.
So sell it as is, without any form of assurance as to its working condition.
Or learn another trade, like selling stocks, or real estate, where the laws and legal precedents are very well documented.
This is not a very lucrative or growing line of business, if you intend that. Used cars is more lucrative, among others that may suit your budget or abilities.
Ok, then the disconnect must be something else.. I'm sure if you'd originally asked what you should do to sell an amplifier with confidence, we'd have answered. Something like.... Looked at the capacitors for signs of leakage, xV/xV are the measured DC offsets, listened and both channels sound ok, are in balance, are not noisy and all controls work as expected. Seems about the right amount of information. Would it have answered your question? Thoughts?
That would be perfectly fine and well within the abilities of an average person with some electronics knowledge.
However, earlier you stated that you work on equipment for others. This places you squarely in the crosshairs of legal action should something go wrong. Whether you charge for work or not, you are responsible for your actions. This is all I am saying.
Asking me or anyone else to prove what your legal situation was completely out of line. If you do this kind of work it would be an excellent idea if you took out an insurance policy to protect you. If they were not needed, that insurance product would not exist. The number of repairs you do per week or month does not matter, although it can speak to competence in court.
The basic point is this. If you do work on equipment, you and you alone are responsible for your workmanship. Certainly your client isn't. You seemed to believe otherwise.
-Chris
If I do a visual inspection and they *look* fine, should I desolder them to test properly? One area that trips me up is knowing when I should pull a part to test vs. not.
Ok, so it appears things are a little different internationally?SoaDTMGguy said:
I'm not here to judge you, but I am paying attention to what you say. Let me put something to you...
Say I was a licensed mechanic. Your brakes were down onto the discs and you came in and asked me to change the pads and rotors. What if I said I'm giving this one to my cousin who's never worked on a car before, but he'll text me if there's a problem and I promise to look through the wheel vents with a torch (flashlight) when it's done.
You'd presumably say you can't learn to tighten a hub by watching youtube. The only way is to have a mechanic put his hands over my hands and let me feel what he feels. (This being the purpose of an apprenticeship.)
Ok, so unless there’s visible leakage or damage, or the circuit isn’t operating correctly in a way that suggests bad capacitors, leave them as is.
Regarding you’re second post.
I’ve sold things via eBay and Craigslist, and as far as I know the expectation is that sales are “AS IS”/“as described” unless stated otherwise. Some sellers offer a 30 day warranty or similar. Most don’t. If I say something was professionally serviced and it wasn’t, or otherwise make a claim in my ad that is not true, the buyer can open a claim with eBay or PayPal (Craigslist has no such protections unless the buyer pays through PayPal.) eBay and PayPal almost always side with the buyer, even if the seller is in the right, and issue a refund. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of legal action being taken.
Regarding you’re second point.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re point is. If it is that a customer of a licensed mechanic would expect the mechanic to do the work, and not send it to his cousin, I agree completely. The nature of being a licensed mechanic precludes such behavior. If he takes it to “some guy” who “knows about cars” it’s a much trickier situation. Although I think there is room to sue for liability of the brakes fail, which is why people don’t tend to do that sort of work without the protections of a business.
Regarding your last point, I must disagreez I have learned a *huge* amount from watching YouTube videos, including car repair. Of course, I only work on my own cars, so if something fails it only comes back on me.
I think there is a difference between “doing work *for* someone” and “doing work, and then selling it to someone”. In the former, there is an understanding that I will do X work producing some result, and that I’d it doesn’t, I owe the guy his money back, or some other restitution. In the later case, I’m simply selling “a thing”. I can describe the condition of the thing, which would include anything I’ve done to it. You would then make a decision about whether or not to buy it in the condition described.
Regarding you’re second post.
I’ve sold things via eBay and Craigslist, and as far as I know the expectation is that sales are “AS IS”/“as described” unless stated otherwise. Some sellers offer a 30 day warranty or similar. Most don’t. If I say something was professionally serviced and it wasn’t, or otherwise make a claim in my ad that is not true, the buyer can open a claim with eBay or PayPal (Craigslist has no such protections unless the buyer pays through PayPal.) eBay and PayPal almost always side with the buyer, even if the seller is in the right, and issue a refund. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of legal action being taken.
Regarding you’re second point.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re point is. If it is that a customer of a licensed mechanic would expect the mechanic to do the work, and not send it to his cousin, I agree completely. The nature of being a licensed mechanic precludes such behavior. If he takes it to “some guy” who “knows about cars” it’s a much trickier situation. Although I think there is room to sue for liability of the brakes fail, which is why people don’t tend to do that sort of work without the protections of a business.
Regarding your last point, I must disagreez I have learned a *huge* amount from watching YouTube videos, including car repair. Of course, I only work on my own cars, so if something fails it only comes back on me.
I think there is a difference between “doing work *for* someone” and “doing work, and then selling it to someone”. In the former, there is an understanding that I will do X work producing some result, and that I’d it doesn’t, I owe the guy his money back, or some other restitution. In the later case, I’m simply selling “a thing”. I can describe the condition of the thing, which would include anything I’ve done to it. You would then make a decision about whether or not to buy it in the condition described.
This was not my point. Your response does, however make me even more comfortable about my position here.
I'm certain you have. I also know that it is not possible for you to know what aspects of that work you don't yet know, or what the youtuber failed to convey because they didn't know.
As was taught to me, and to those before them.. I like to give knowledge which is at the correct level for the student as I see it. I have seen the result of ignoring this step. I don't make this decision just because the student says so.
Would you please elaborate, then?
This is true. However, the extension from thet line of reasoning is not to attempt anything until you have studied and achieve mastery.
I believe, and know from experience, that it is possible to learn by doing. Try, failing, learn why you failed, try again. There are many ways to learn, and different people learn best in different ways.
Sigh.
I don't know why you feel the need to say this to yourself, or choose to make out like others don't see the value of learning by mistakes... but statements like this can help us to short circuit logic and bypass the common sense that makes us stop and think.
I have seen so much disinformation concerning electronics repair on YouTube. Those who make videos are often not well respected technicians. One reason is that we are generally way too busy. The other is that we know that people just watch snippets and miss the entire story. That is dangerous.
Another factor is that we went to school, and paid for it. We normally apprenticed for years, and it take a few decades to become really good at what you do. Sorry, but we aren't giving that away. I give away a ton of information here trying to help. But I focus on the task and try to provide as much relevant information as I can. But I process the information and others do not see everything that went on to come up with a suggestion.
Every experienced person here is the same as me in this regard. But if you're not going to listen and accept what you need to know, it is over. We sure as heck do not have the time or patience to debate a point we've learned the hard way.
Not trying to be hard on you, but if I were training you and you showed the attitude you did earlier, I would have fired you. I have in the past because I have learned some personality traits are incompatible with a trained person doing a good job. Decades of observation. As a young technician, I had to prove to the guy who trained me a lot that I was worth training. Debating with him would have ended that internship instantly.
When you are learning, find a real, human expert and learn from that person. You are the student and you really do know nothing. Learning from "experts" on the internet is pretty stupid, and everyone thinks they are great. Once you know more you can begin to decipher what is true, and what isn't. Everything follows the rules of physics, and you are always liable for what you do. Period. What you can get away with on selling sites has zero to do with what you may be morally or legally responsible for.
Every real expert I have ever met has exceptional morals. At the end of the day, all you have is your word. Without that you have nothing. Live by that no matter what you do.
-Chris
I am not trying to become a professional technician, simply a hobbyist.
I think our debate was driven by confusion more than anything, at least on my end. I think we talked past each other often with regard to who is liable for what under which rule or what law or which moral code. If I do work for someone, of any nature, I stand behind it as best I’m able.
With my own gear, I risk breaking things because I have not learned enough. I accept that price. If I end up selling something, I only do so if I believe it to work correctly. I don’t, and do not plan to, make a business out of fixing stuff and reselling it. But, if I have something lying around that is no longer useful to me, I’ll put it up for sale, with a clear description of what it is. Not as a professional product, but as a guy selling a thing that he has.
I crossed a line when I strayed into your world of professional service technicians. It was my mistake to even imply that I was, or fancied my self as such. I’m sorry.
I think our debate was driven by confusion more than anything, at least on my end. I think we talked past each other often with regard to who is liable for what under which rule or what law or which moral code. If I do work for someone, of any nature, I stand behind it as best I’m able.
With my own gear, I risk breaking things because I have not learned enough. I accept that price. If I end up selling something, I only do so if I believe it to work correctly. I don’t, and do not plan to, make a business out of fixing stuff and reselling it. But, if I have something lying around that is no longer useful to me, I’ll put it up for sale, with a clear description of what it is. Not as a professional product, but as a guy selling a thing that he has.
I crossed a line when I strayed into your world of professional service technicians. It was my mistake to even imply that I was, or fancied my self as such. I’m sorry.
Every professional has to have traceability.
Doctor, lawyer, technician...
Here, truck drivers need a three year old driving license, and special training before getting a heavy license (big truck, above 5 tons GVW I think). Trailers need additional training.
From your posts here, you are not equipped, or experienced enough to do basic repairs. Yet you want to certify equipment for sale.
Sorry, it does not work that way.
Like Chris said above, it takes lots of experience after specialist training to reach that level.
I have no idea how old you are, but if you are above 45, don't even try to reach this standard.
Doctor, lawyer, technician...
Here, truck drivers need a three year old driving license, and special training before getting a heavy license (big truck, above 5 tons GVW I think). Trailers need additional training.
From your posts here, you are not equipped, or experienced enough to do basic repairs. Yet you want to certify equipment for sale.
Sorry, it does not work that way.
Like Chris said above, it takes lots of experience after specialist training to reach that level.
I have no idea how old you are, but if you are above 45, don't even try to reach this standard.
If you sell something as tested, a certificate is implied. You could be asked for your qualification.
Here we have Chartered Engineers, who have to be elected by the professional peers, you need 5 years of engineering job experience after engineering school to even apply.
Their certificates are legally valid.
Same for CPA, lawyers, doctors...they have licenses to practice.
Something goes boom, you will be held responsible.
No qualification means fraud, with legal liability as a cheat.
Clear?
Here we have Chartered Engineers, who have to be elected by the professional peers, you need 5 years of engineering job experience after engineering school to even apply.
Their certificates are legally valid.
Same for CPA, lawyers, doctors...they have licenses to practice.
Something goes boom, you will be held responsible.
No qualification means fraud, with legal liability as a cheat.
Clear?