I have tweaked my speakers to where they don't do anything specifically wrong I can tell, but they sound a little distant. Mostly listening to classical guitar. Good, but not quite right.
Any suggestions what I am missing? The room is pretty bright, so I do have a pretty gentle slope from 4K to 20K of about 3 dB dialed in. If brighter than that, then trumpets or Joni Mitchel get harsh. My wife still thinks a flute (Poem) is a bit bright.
System is based on Seas ER18 and 27TBFC/g tweeter. My crossover is around 2K, second electrical. Might be still a shade low for the tweeter, but the phase is pretty good through the crossover region and I don't play very loud. I do run a 12 inch low Q sub but that is not really in the equation.
Any suggestions what I am missing? The room is pretty bright, so I do have a pretty gentle slope from 4K to 20K of about 3 dB dialed in. If brighter than that, then trumpets or Joni Mitchel get harsh. My wife still thinks a flute (Poem) is a bit bright.
System is based on Seas ER18 and 27TBFC/g tweeter. My crossover is around 2K, second electrical. Might be still a shade low for the tweeter, but the phase is pretty good through the crossover region and I don't play very loud. I do run a 12 inch low Q sub but that is not really in the equation.
Seems you should treat the room first. Wool rugs on bare floors can help a lot, as can
(closed for listening) drapes on bare windows. It may sound distant due to the bright reflections.
Try the sound in the near field, it should have a better balance.
(closed for listening) drapes on bare windows. It may sound distant due to the bright reflections.
Try the sound in the near field, it should have a better balance.
Last edited:
I can only guess that distant means far away. It might be a case of ratio of direct to reflected sound. Reflected sound especially treble gives us the sense of your place. Toe in the speaker so they both face you. If you want to push it further, it would involve using a tweeter with wave guide. Add a rug onthe floor in front of you and I suppose more soft things in the room, pillows, heavy curtains etc.
Oon
Oon
What does good mean?
Sometimes it is not possible to voice a speaker correctly due to the presence of issues that won't equalise.
Post offaxis fr response, 0, 10, 20, 30 degree at least. Upclose, without room influence.
Have you optimized crossover for directionality?
As we actually live in our living room, proper treatment is very difficult. I do have a very nice Chinese rug on the floor, but most of the room is hardwood. Big glass windows behind, furniture too close. All very bad. I might be able to find a heaver liner for the drapes.
Dragging out the equipment tomorrow. It may take a while. When I say phase pretty good, I mean across the area of the crossover, drivers are only a few degrees out of phase. It was quite a few years ago when I built them, but I don't recall a dip in the crossover region due to phase miss-match as is common.
Listening to guitar, it is not unpleasant, just not right.
Dragging out the equipment tomorrow. It may take a while. When I say phase pretty good, I mean across the area of the crossover, drivers are only a few degrees out of phase. It was quite a few years ago when I built them, but I don't recall a dip in the crossover region due to phase miss-match as is common.
Listening to guitar, it is not unpleasant, just not right.
There may be some beaming issue...
That's why it is important to see directivity plots.
It could explain some laid back feeling.
Direct and reflected sound should be as close as possible.
That's why it is important to see directivity plots.
It could explain some laid back feeling.
Direct and reflected sound should be as close as possible.
Maybe you just don't like the sound of this tweeter that you have to pad it down so much that it sounds distant, in order to avoid it still sounding bright at -3db?
Range of flute is 250-2,500hz, with a fundamental of 1,375hz, the second harmonic is 2,750hz -- you could try raising the XO point and bring the level back up a bit.
Zaph used the 27TDFC fabric dome with the ER18 in the SR71. Should be an exact fit if wishing to change tweeter. Ditto the 27TFFC.
Range of flute is 250-2,500hz, with a fundamental of 1,375hz, the second harmonic is 2,750hz -- you could try raising the XO point and bring the level back up a bit.
Zaph used the 27TDFC fabric dome with the ER18 in the SR71. Should be an exact fit if wishing to change tweeter. Ditto the 27TFFC.
Last edited:
I had the TDFC first, but it was way too harsh. The Al/Mg helped a lot. I was surprised that radiusing the rear corners helped a little, as did a felt ring on the tweeter. I just used a DTX in my new HT center, and it is a tiny bit better. I wound up not far from the Zaph design. Just a little higher crossover and a little better phase match. I tried the HDS tweeter, and the big dip I could not resolve. My living room back them was much larger, so I could afford a clean 2 foot zone around the speakers. Not so now.
I did try toe in. No help. I sit about 10 feet away, so directivity is not much of a deal. Sitting here at the desk, I have an idea how to re-arrange things to move in a little and add another chair. Not much I can do about under 2 foot reflections.
As my survey of commercial speakers led me to a minimum of the Dynaudio special 40 that are much better, I am digging into these. The QLM may have promise, but if I spent that much I had better buy a new sofa, as that is where I would be sleeping.
Off to bed. I'll take the above hints and start measuring tomorrow.
I did try toe in. No help. I sit about 10 feet away, so directivity is not much of a deal. Sitting here at the desk, I have an idea how to re-arrange things to move in a little and add another chair. Not much I can do about under 2 foot reflections.
As my survey of commercial speakers led me to a minimum of the Dynaudio special 40 that are much better, I am digging into these. The QLM may have promise, but if I spent that much I had better buy a new sofa, as that is where I would be sleeping.
Off to bed. I'll take the above hints and start measuring tomorrow.
The Satori TW29RN-B may be a candidate if I can't get the Seas to work. I like the Revelators, but they won't go anywhere near that low with a shallow crossover. I did model it and it would require a stepped box.
I experienced a similar phenomenon when I used a normal dome tweeter (without waveguide) + a cone mid. If I EQ-ed to flat on-axis, there was a pronounced off-axis peak (harsh sound), if I EQ-ed down the off axis peak, this caused (of course) an on-axis dip (distant sound), the root of the problem was the very wide directivity (almost omnidirectional at the low-end, like any bare dome tweeter) of the tweeter + box dimensions + placement on the baffle + directivity mismatch to the midrange driver.
Last edited:
Mark K did an excellent job on the ER18 + DXT. Be it that he equalised carefully, what resulted in quite some crossover. Excellent directivity. The design hangs still out there on the web.
The H1499 DXT is the better choice anyway for a 6" mid. Or pick a separate waveguide.
The H1499 DXT is the better choice anyway for a 6" mid. Or pick a separate waveguide.
tvrgeek, I have to add Deni09 remark that I could get either by just tuning the xo, so a general recess / boost at mid (xo around 2kHz in my case) could make the sound away / forward even with pretty smooth directivity. Fine tune the xo by ear for this reason. If your are not able to get good balance it is time to build better speaker (better in the acoustic domain, the physical construct including the transducers) as Deni09 and maybe others have already written.
Mind you, also resonances (peaks in the response) can make speaker sound small and too much treble can do the same. If your wife says too much treble, try cutting it a bit more and see how it turns out, it is all relative lowering treble = boosting anything below. It takes a while for ear to adjust so a "neutral" speaker might sound boring/unimpressive at first. You can turn neutral speaker very loud while it still sounds very nice and the whole sound comes forward, not just treble or bass or any other spectra issues. By neutral I mean there are no issues like resonances and the voicing is correct to the ear.
Hats of to anyone who tunes their speakers by modifying a passive xo 😀
Mind you, also resonances (peaks in the response) can make speaker sound small and too much treble can do the same. If your wife says too much treble, try cutting it a bit more and see how it turns out, it is all relative lowering treble = boosting anything below. It takes a while for ear to adjust so a "neutral" speaker might sound boring/unimpressive at first. You can turn neutral speaker very loud while it still sounds very nice and the whole sound comes forward, not just treble or bass or any other spectra issues. By neutral I mean there are no issues like resonances and the voicing is correct to the ear.
Hats of to anyone who tunes their speakers by modifying a passive xo 😀
Yes, there is always possibility the ear has tuned to a problem. It is almost impossible to know what there might be wrong that makes one describe a distant sound, without seeing and hearing the situation and might be hard still. A problem might be in the speaker or the room or positioning or just the combination not being ideal. Thought to write some aspects that might affect and weren't mentioned yet 🙂
Too early to make noise in the house, but your tips have lead me to
www.audioexcite.com >> Excellence Two – M1 DXT
Crossover tuning is always by ear. Measurements only give a hint. When I started, the method was a few of us sitting around a shop listening, suggesting, a few glasses of wine and so on. What we can do now with a PC (Berhinger mic, Focusrite preamp) would have cost hundreds of thousands of HP equipment back then.
I have a wood lathe now, so that opens possibilities in waveguides or separate egg tweeter enclosures. UGG. need coffee.
www.audioexcite.com >> Excellence Two – M1 DXT
Crossover tuning is always by ear. Measurements only give a hint. When I started, the method was a few of us sitting around a shop listening, suggesting, a few glasses of wine and so on. What we can do now with a PC (Berhinger mic, Focusrite preamp) would have cost hundreds of thousands of HP equipment back then.
I have a wood lathe now, so that opens possibilities in waveguides or separate egg tweeter enclosures. UGG. need coffee.