My BFF is looking seriously at Naim gear (a NAP250 or NAP120).
Do I talk him out of it?
He's specifically wanting to drive some JR149. His argument is that Jim Rogers is reported to have used Naim with these speaks so it must be a good match.
Do I talk him out of it?
He's specifically wanting to drive some JR149. His argument is that Jim Rogers is reported to have used Naim with these speaks so it must be a good match.
Last edited:
Buy old Japanese sets.
Classics.
Naim and other British sets were odds and sods produced in the scale of thousands a year in workshop scale factories with poor quality components. Hand soldered, poor switches and pots, batch to batch changes in heat sinks and so on.
The Japanese made millions a year, and their components were superlative, with proper construction. Machine soldered, I think, with reliable parts, and good margins of safety on most components.
The other advantage is that they are easy to get, so prices are reasonable.
Also, if you open up the set, there are not that many circuits, most are similar.
For example, 2955 / 3055, TIP41/47, STKs, LM3886, Mosfets, TDA series chip amps, and so on...
Philips here used NEC and Matsushita chip amps in their mid fi systems.
B&O used STKs, same as Kenwood and Sony, and the price difference was huge, just for brand...B&O used Korean and Chinese capacitors. So they are expensive junk, prone to fail. Nobody has accused Japanese sets of poor quality, at least after 1970 or so.
Bit like buying the fastest lorry in Europe, with possibly a tractor engine inside...or buying a Toyota, never breaks.
So you enjoy the travel, or the music.
You want to pay for an exotic brand made from generic parts, your choice.
Classics.
Naim and other British sets were odds and sods produced in the scale of thousands a year in workshop scale factories with poor quality components. Hand soldered, poor switches and pots, batch to batch changes in heat sinks and so on.
The Japanese made millions a year, and their components were superlative, with proper construction. Machine soldered, I think, with reliable parts, and good margins of safety on most components.
The other advantage is that they are easy to get, so prices are reasonable.
Also, if you open up the set, there are not that many circuits, most are similar.
For example, 2955 / 3055, TIP41/47, STKs, LM3886, Mosfets, TDA series chip amps, and so on...
Philips here used NEC and Matsushita chip amps in their mid fi systems.
B&O used STKs, same as Kenwood and Sony, and the price difference was huge, just for brand...B&O used Korean and Chinese capacitors. So they are expensive junk, prone to fail. Nobody has accused Japanese sets of poor quality, at least after 1970 or so.
Bit like buying the fastest lorry in Europe, with possibly a tractor engine inside...or buying a Toyota, never breaks.
So you enjoy the travel, or the music.
You want to pay for an exotic brand made from generic parts, your choice.
Last edited:
Of course now a lot of fancy brands are owned by Korean and Chinese interests, with production in China.
Or Vietnam, and other locations where labor is cheap, and beneficial duties to the importing country.
If I buy equipment made in China, it was 70% duty into India, but zero duty from Vietnam and Thailand.
The Chinese put factories where the last stage was done in those countries (zero duty on imports from China to there), and sold goods to here and the USA duty free, with severe losses to the local importer country's manufacturers.
Buyer beware.
Or Vietnam, and other locations where labor is cheap, and beneficial duties to the importing country.
If I buy equipment made in China, it was 70% duty into India, but zero duty from Vietnam and Thailand.
The Chinese put factories where the last stage was done in those countries (zero duty on imports from China to there), and sold goods to here and the USA duty free, with severe losses to the local importer country's manufacturers.
Buyer beware.
Absolutely not. Few other amps can successfully emulate what a NAP250 does right. Deficiencies with the deep bass or macro dynamics would not be an issue in the context of the JR149.
Nothing at all wrong with a NAP250.
If you're buying S/H then the usual warnings w.r.t health checks would apply.
I've had a NAP110 from new since the early 80's. It's been in for servicing by Naim three times (dry capacitors, and once, a blown output transistor) and has loads of running and I have no complaints about reliability. It doesn't have the grunt of a 250, but it has that dynamic Naim house sound. I've never felt inclined to change it.
The only thing about Naim that's irksome was Naim's insistence on using Din Plugs. Which was perverse IMO.
If you're buying S/H then the usual warnings w.r.t health checks would apply.
I've had a NAP110 from new since the early 80's. It's been in for servicing by Naim three times (dry capacitors, and once, a blown output transistor) and has loads of running and I have no complaints about reliability. It doesn't have the grunt of a 250, but it has that dynamic Naim house sound. I've never felt inclined to change it.
The only thing about Naim that's irksome was Naim's insistence on using Din Plugs. Which was perverse IMO.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
fyi - I wish DIN plugs had become the norm. Fewer cables, fewer issues.
I agree with Naresh, that the Japanese stuff was and in some cases still is, the pinnacle of mass market hi-fi and that goes for transistors for audio. The investment into semiconductor technology in Japan in the 80's put their stuff way up on top. What today looks like a bog standard output transistor is the result of relentless investment and technical improvements in Japanese labs and foundries. For many goods, I still prefer to buy from Japan. Re-capping with Nichicon (Japanese) caps means no compromises on quality at good prices.
Doesn't mean that an older Naim isn't a good option though.
I agree with Naresh, that the Japanese stuff was and in some cases still is, the pinnacle of mass market hi-fi and that goes for transistors for audio. The investment into semiconductor technology in Japan in the 80's put their stuff way up on top. What today looks like a bog standard output transistor is the result of relentless investment and technical improvements in Japanese labs and foundries. For many goods, I still prefer to buy from Japan. Re-capping with Nichicon (Japanese) caps means no compromises on quality at good prices.
Doesn't mean that an older Naim isn't a good option though.
Last edited:
Stunned silence.
I'd agree with Naresh about manufacturing quality of Japanese gear. But not British w.r.t Naim.
Read the Naim Wikipedia article, some reviews too.
Saw the prices.
Stunned silence.......
Like John McEnroe (tennis player) said to the umpire..."You can't be serious"
Or was it 'You gotta be kidding"
At that price, you can buy an apartment in some places.
They better be good.
Or like Aston Martin brake pedals, over priced beyond imagination.
Apart from the articles, any information as to the circuits used?
Saw the prices.
Stunned silence.......
Like John McEnroe (tennis player) said to the umpire..."You can't be serious"
Or was it 'You gotta be kidding"
At that price, you can buy an apartment in some places.
They better be good.
Or like Aston Martin brake pedals, over priced beyond imagination.
Apart from the articles, any information as to the circuits used?
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Value for money, the Japanese amps are hard to beat. I use Japanese transistors in my designs.
fyi - RCA = live centre connector makes before ground, a.k.a. noises from the speakers. Single channel only, multiple grounded cables required and many are not made with floating earths etc. You can spend on fancy cables and gold connectors but the basic premise is not that impressive.
fyi - RCA = live centre connector makes before ground, a.k.a. noises from the speakers. Single channel only, multiple grounded cables required and many are not made with floating earths etc. You can spend on fancy cables and gold connectors but the basic premise is not that impressive.
Last edited:
There's a lot of discussion here: NAP250 clone
The idea being to make a 250 as close as possible to the Naim original. Which, as the opening post makes clear, isn't going to be easy as Vereker designed his amps close to the point of instability to get the sound he wanted.
Going back the O/P one thing to be wary of in buying S/H is the modder. Some were good, some weren't. But there was a steady supply of after market 'improvements' that people fitted. You may be buying something that's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster.
I'm emphatically not saying that RCA is without problems! Just that Din probably wasn't the answer. As Obi-Wan might have said, "These are not the connectors you are looking for..."
DIN are virtually no different in that regard , DIN doesn’t have any earth first pin arrangement.
Besides who does “live” connections anyway ……., that’s asking for pops, bangs and squeals.
If you’re intent on “live” connections you can get RCA plug connectors that have a recessed centre pin (spring loaded) so that contacts first , the pin goes in and effectively emerges from its hiding place … as you push the plug on as a whole the shield eventually bottoms out and both pin and shield move as one.
Example: Neutrik profi
NEUTRIK PROFI Gold Phono RCA PLUGS NF2C-B/2 Pair - Compass Audio
In my view, DIN plugs with more than three pins were the work of the devil. I used to hate wiring up fully populated five pin 180 degree DIN plugs for use with tape recorders.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I approach old amplifiers, like the Naim, as a kind of industrial archeology and it would feel wrong modifying them to use RCA, I'd rather use DIN or whatever to keep it intact. When I built my improved Naim 'clone', I used RCA because I have them on hand so I've yet to face soldering a multi-pin monster - I'd probably just go buy from the usual low cost sources.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Nobody's mentioned SQ. "Classic" Japanese gear is a P.O.S. compared to it's
Brit contemporaries. The OP's premise is "a good match". I'm gonna say yes. 🙂
Brit contemporaries. The OP's premise is "a good match". I'm gonna say yes. 🙂