Thanks for all the responses.
Here is a little more information about my particular situation.
I have a small listening room. Only 10.5’x12’ with an 8’ ceiling. It has very thick carpet that eliminates most of the floor reflections. The speakers are about 6 feet apart and about 2’ from the front wall. My listening position is about 2’ from the rear wall. That places me about 8’ from the speakers. There aren’t a lot of other choices in this rather small room. I’ve moved the speakers around somewhat within the limits of where they can be and the current location seems to be the best.
I definitely can get some decent imaging, but the width never exceeds the speaker separation and is usually a little less. Depth, however, sometimes is better. On some opera recordings the singers can appear to be noticeably back deep in the stage where I think they really are in the actual performance. They actually appear to be behind my front wall
Now getting back to my goal. I want to expand the soundstage width, particularly for orchestras so that it doesn’t seem like the whole orchestra is squeezed together between the two speakers. I don’t mind giving up other things like accurate imaging if necessary.
From what I’ve read I think I can probably get what I want with an open baffle, although the small room might limit that as well. And OB is on my list to try. But I would first like to explore other options with a box speaker to see where that might take me.
Here is a little more information about my particular situation.
I have a small listening room. Only 10.5’x12’ with an 8’ ceiling. It has very thick carpet that eliminates most of the floor reflections. The speakers are about 6 feet apart and about 2’ from the front wall. My listening position is about 2’ from the rear wall. That places me about 8’ from the speakers. There aren’t a lot of other choices in this rather small room. I’ve moved the speakers around somewhat within the limits of where they can be and the current location seems to be the best.
I definitely can get some decent imaging, but the width never exceeds the speaker separation and is usually a little less. Depth, however, sometimes is better. On some opera recordings the singers can appear to be noticeably back deep in the stage where I think they really are in the actual performance. They actually appear to be behind my front wall
Now getting back to my goal. I want to expand the soundstage width, particularly for orchestras so that it doesn’t seem like the whole orchestra is squeezed together between the two speakers. I don’t mind giving up other things like accurate imaging if necessary.
From what I’ve read I think I can probably get what I want with an open baffle, although the small room might limit that as well. And OB is on my list to try. But I would first like to explore other options with a box speaker to see where that might take me.
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Your room is on the small side for OB to work well, they need to be at least approximately 3 feet from the front wall for the rear wave to be sufficiently delayed. Have a look at the Linkwitz Lab site for information.
Try some extreme toe-out with the loudspeakers at about 45 degrees off-axis to your head pointing near the near side wall. With the baffle about 2 feet from the near side-wall.
Yeah thanks, Jazz Man. I'm aware of the room being rather small for OB, but really want to try it anyhow. If it doesn't work then I'll know for sure.
My main goal as stated above is to increase the size of an orchestra so that it doesn't sound like it's squeezed down to fit between the speakers. If I can find a way to get there with boxed speakers that's fine. It's the reason I started this topic. But I'm not sure that will be any easier or better than going OB.
My main goal as stated above is to increase the size of an orchestra so that it doesn't sound like it's squeezed down to fit between the speakers. If I can find a way to get there with boxed speakers that's fine. It's the reason I started this topic. But I'm not sure that will be any easier or better than going OB.
Hi,
I am also a fan for open baffle. The whole concept of open baffle is the signal should reach at least 5-10ms or so after the main signal. So the trick is always about how to get that distance so the reflection is recognized as another event and you don't get time smearing. But working with open baffle another matter and requires a complete redesign of your concept. And the issues such as bass, possibly multichannel ramping comes in. So I would say go open baffle if you want to play with open baffle but if you just want more spacious try a rear firing tweeter.
BTW. I didn't think of it and is not my invention or anything like that. This concept is implemented in a lot of commercial speakers including Sonus Faber Aida, McIntosh etc.
Pointing it upwards by 45 degrees instead of directly to the back will ensure that it will have multiple reflections. So it will have sufficient time delay.
Oon
Faithfully and accurately are nice words, but without knowing the studio and/or recording conditions it isn't worth all that much.
Toole is a proponent of the use of early reflections to create spaciousness, specifically for classical music. I recall he uses curtains to be able to "switch off" those reflections for more studio oriented work. His 'early reflections' are at ~6-7 ms. Not that easy to get in a small room.
Another known method is the use of a Haas kicker. It can make a difference in listening enjoyment and when coming from lateral angles it enhances the stereo image up front, while (still) helping to soften the effect of stereo cross talk.
If one eliminates all early reflections and listens in far field, the stereo cross talk becomes quite obvious as dips and peaks in the frequency response one hears (gets at both ears). Move just a little to the side, outside of the sweet spot and everything changes as far as balance goes. Quite an obvious effect if one does not have early reflections.
The natural reflections in a somewhat reflective living room soften that effect considerably. But they do tend to mess (obscure) with imaging as well.
Call it trickery, I certainly do. But I'm not looking for HiFi, as defined by it's purity (I don't use this room or setup for mixing and/or mastering, just for listening enjoyment, as I love music). I'm looking for MyFi, as in what pleases me the most, making me (believe I'm) listen in a suitable and pleasing environment instead of a somewhat compromised small European living room.
Calling a Haas kicker or back firing tweeters fake surround is quite far from the truth. One has to mess up real bad to get that effect. If one get's it right you don't hear this ambience it created as a separate entity. It can be used to make a small room sound larger. Hiding the original properties of the room.
The added sources don't reveal themselves if done right. Not unlike the backwave of an OB speaker. Timing can be important how much it messes with clarity. Likewise you also don't want to use OB speakers very close to (back) walls etc. (Though some do)
To the OP: diffraction of the speaker itself can limit the size of the stage. Diffraction can draw attention to the speaker, making the speaker position known to the listener. The less diffraction a speaker design has (no sharp corners etc.), the more it will disappear.
Like in a real-world performance, or is your reproduction nirvana hearing what the mixdown engineer heard?
Purity in what sense? 😉 Reproducing the audio signal accurately in an acoustic form is not what the engineer heard, or probably even what a microphone placed in his ear canal picked up, as you no doubt know. 🙂
Mr Linky is real world instrument directivity behavior wrt freq different from the one we face with a loudspeaker?
I mean are highs less directive? 😉
Ime no so...
Wesayso, Me-Fi seems adequate. 🙂
+1 with your diffraction explanation.
I mean are highs less directive? 😉
Ime no so...
Wesayso, Me-Fi seems adequate. 🙂
+1 with your diffraction explanation.
Well, real instruments radiate in all directions, front, back, top, bottom, left, right. Most loudspeakers front only, except at lower frequencies where radiation becomes 4pi...
Oon
Yes, but in what ways does this matter.. and is there a connection? This is reproduction after all.
I agree with your concept of MyFi. Most people are thinking linearly like electronic engineers, one dimension only. They sometimes forget that sound is 3-dimensional. And you don't want to hear how a Jazz band sound inside a recording studio, the sound is all dead... you want to imagine it in a Jazz bar, even though recording was in a studio.
And have you heard an acoustic guitar as loud as a saxophone... it can only exist in recordings.
Oon
^ not with good musicians, they are able to manage their dynamic ( in your case a good sax player is able to play lightly and a great guitar player is able to deliver level when needed - up to a limit we agree). Eg: 'girl from ipanema', S.Getz play smooth, the sound of his sax is not full blast. This is valid for jazz drummers too.
Studio recordings are dead if you locate a band in a dead room. Usually big facilities have live room too.
And not all classical recording are done in theatre.
As well instruments doesn't ( all) radiate omni.
😉
Studio recordings are dead if you locate a band in a dead room. Usually big facilities have live room too.
And not all classical recording are done in theatre.
As well instruments doesn't ( all) radiate omni.
😉
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classicalfan, you don't touch on whether or not you use any toe-in. Are the loudspeakers firing straight ahead? Have you tried an extreme toe-in whereas the loudspeakers fire toward the opposite room corners that flank your listening position?
Yes there is. Because many recordings are done close mic. Typically only inches from the instrument or in a guitar pickup, never really captured the ambience of the room. However if you as an observer of the band you would hear the ambience.
If you listen to music without an ambience and no cross talk between speakers, and no difference in phase, your brain will tell you there is only one way anything could sound like that, it is coming from inside your head, just like you are listening to earphone.
Oon
The don't radiate omni which implies equal amplitude in all directions. So that is why I am careful that I use the word all directions... which means it is not always in equal amplitude or frequency content but they do emit in all directions. Unless you are playing something in ultrasonic only. Partly caused by vibrations in all directions as well as diffraction by air molecules.
Oon
Ok, try to mic a guitarist in his back and listen if it radiate in 'all direction'. Simple test.
Or 'under' a violin, or a vocalist, or double bass... 😉
Or 'under' a violin, or a vocalist, or double bass... 😉
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When I use a recording I want to assume it is 'ready for consumption'. It should be ok to reproduce it just the way it is.. this also means it shouldn't be changed, unless I choose to add a change, normally I wouldn't except for adding the room. Adding the room is not only a separate addition, but can be done in an independent way (early or late, H or V, same side or not, full omni etc) Some mess with the imaging more and some less.
If each is close mic'd then it will also be panned and leveled and reverb can be added, not always a good thing..
If it is in mono it should be as though the sound is coming in through a window near between your speakers.
If each is close mic'd then it will also be panned and leveled and reverb can be added, not always a good thing..
If it is in mono it should be as though the sound is coming in through a window near between your speakers.
The only time I've ever heard "what the recording engineer intended" was when I brought my speakers outdoors - no room. It's an experiment every audiophile should try every so often; at least once in their career. I first did this when i was young and still had good hearing; as I recall, the result was spectacular.
I have to wonder if classicalfan did this, if the apparent soundstage width would still be squished between the speakers? If so, I'd say there's nothing you could do to make it otherwise, sans some sonic trick like the Carver device.
As a footnote, I've never done this with OBs. I assume any backwave just keeps going...
I have to wonder if classicalfan did this, if the apparent soundstage width would still be squished between the speakers? If so, I'd say there's nothing you could do to make it otherwise, sans some sonic trick like the Carver device.
As a footnote, I've never done this with OBs. I assume any backwave just keeps going...