Your funny…….I’m not saying now nor ever did I say to experiment on the speakers you like.
“Just get yourself a set of speakers for experimentation” I believe at one point you said you had a couple sets laying around that you didn’t enjoy?
Debating something certainly is easier if you know both sides of the argument……..you seem quite one sided with no intentions of even trying to understand what your rallying against……..you wanted measurements I gave them to you……your response was oh that fine print article is much too lengthy to bother with.
“Just get yourself a set of speakers for experimentation” I believe at one point you said you had a couple sets laying around that you didn’t enjoy?
Debating something certainly is easier if you know both sides of the argument……..you seem quite one sided with no intentions of even trying to understand what your rallying against……..you wanted measurements I gave them to you……your response was oh that fine print article is much too lengthy to bother with.
You misunderstand what I said. I don't have a couple sets of speakers laying around. The only other ones I have are AN Classic 10s, which are full range drivers and there are no crossovers or capacitors in them.
Ahhh….got it. So get yourself a set of speakers for experimentation!
You can always sell them when your done as ‘updated crossover’ 😀
You can always sell them when your done as ‘updated crossover’ 😀
Potentially is the key word here. In the one paper that is open for viewing there is no conclusion that people can really hear any difference. Only that there could be one. And there aren't any true listening tests to prove things one way or the other. This is all theoretical musing.
So look at the videos that I referenced above and then tell me if anyone has conducted well designed and implemented listening tests to establish the possible effects of capacitor construction on audio performance. I've never seen any.
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"It is obvious that such effects can clearly introduce audible differences between different types of capacitors."
"CONCLUSIONS
We have discovered a major cause of non- linear distortion in capacitors and we have shown that this effect can create significant –and thus audible- distortions in sound signals. Especially in passive cross-over filters this effect can introduce high levels of intermodulation distortion and thus lead to audible differences between capacitors."
Non-linear distortions in capacitors
IMHO anyone who doesn't hear intermodulation distortion products that are only 30-40dB down either isn't listening or doesn't care - take your pick. No one who claims to be interested in quality sound reproduction would buy any other audio electronics with such poor intermodulation performance.
Loudspeakers are inherently so full of nonlinearities that understanding what are the significant contributors is akin to it untangling a bowl of spaghetti.
Ill-informed calls to authority of science are not helpful, even more so when known science does not back up the claims, and in fact tears them down.
"CONCLUSIONS
We have discovered a major cause of non- linear distortion in capacitors and we have shown that this effect can create significant –and thus audible- distortions in sound signals. Especially in passive cross-over filters this effect can introduce high levels of intermodulation distortion and thus lead to audible differences between capacitors."
Non-linear distortions in capacitors
IMHO anyone who doesn't hear intermodulation distortion products that are only 30-40dB down either isn't listening or doesn't care - take your pick. No one who claims to be interested in quality sound reproduction would buy any other audio electronics with such poor intermodulation performance.
Loudspeakers are inherently so full of nonlinearities that understanding what are the significant contributors is akin to it untangling a bowl of spaghetti.
Ill-informed calls to authority of science are not helpful, even more so when known science does not back up the claims, and in fact tears them down.
All very nice theory, but where are the actual tests with listeners that prove there is any audible difference. "can introduce" proves absolutely nothing about the final outcome.
Sorry, but you are going to do a lot better than this to establish a case for worrying about how capacitors are constructed and whether it pays to use more expensive types over garden variety.
@johnmath
Did you actually read the AES paper (Non-linear distortion in capacitors, from Menno van der Veen) which you quoted?
If so, how it is possible you didn't notice there are no measurements on any actual capacitor there? And no actual numbers on dielectric stiffness? Do you realize your's 30-40 dB intermodulation products are products of pure imagination?
Did you actually read the AES paper (Non-linear distortion in capacitors, from Menno van der Veen) which you quoted?
If so, how it is possible you didn't notice there are no measurements on any actual capacitor there? And no actual numbers on dielectric stiffness? Do you realize your's 30-40 dB intermodulation products are products of pure imagination?
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Yeah, thanks. That would be nice. I really can't afford to do it myself, because I have to save my pennies up so that I can buy a bunch of expensive capacitors to put in my crossovers based on what people are telling me here.
Apparently, according to them, I can't possibly be enjoying my speakers right now. I must try to improve my speakers, whatever that means. by substituting different types of capacitors in the crossovers. And if I don't do that I'm some sort of Neanderthal listener who isn't doing enough to help myself.
The problem is I keep asking them for proof that this will help based on well run tests with real listeners. So far no one has been able to produce those test results. But they expect me to spend my money on a bunch of capacitors that I really don't want or have a need for. So if someone wants to send me money so that I can read those papers I might reconsider.
But then I'm still going to need more money to buy all those expensive capacitors to try out. Maybe you help with that as well. Thanks.
That's a nonsensical statement. The science behind this is more than robust enough to draw that conclusion, by orders of magnitude.
Where in any of my posts is price mentioned? I suspect you are making faulty assumptions not conveyed in my posts.
You say there is no science behind "capacitor sound" but when you are presented with peer-reviewed published science from multiple authors in multiple countries published in the World's peak journals for electronic and audio engineering, you say that that science doesn't count!
You are calling out the standard of proof you expect for others. I invite you to post some links or references to peer reviewed research to support your own conjectures.
Well, the proof is there, it cost money to provide it for you, but your need to believe there can't be an audible difference is strong. AES E-Library >> Audio Capacitors. Myth or Reality?
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Your comprehension skills seem to involve a lot of distortion…..maybe some sort of bias is the cause?
Jazzman just introduced a aes paper #7314 that seems to meet all your criteria. https://www.aes.org/images/e-lib/thumbnails/1/4/14444_full.png
I must have missed that. Where did anyone tell you you should "spend my money on a bunch of capacitors that I really don't want or have a need for"? Perhaps you could provide the post number.
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Bob, actually johnmath did, but classical didn't appear to notice it, that's what I was referring to about paying for it, ie the paper.
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Johnmath said:
What I am saying, but you refuse to acknowledge, is that there aren't any well controlled listening tests that establish humans can actually distinguish the sound between one type of capacitor and another. At least none that I have ever seen. If you can find some then please provide a reference to them.
In the meantime all of these papers you refer to provide are nice academic exercises, but prove nothing about how these observed difference translate into actual sound at people's ears.
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He might be talking about when I told him to get a handful of caps to try, I also stated they need not be expensive and also stated people would probably donate some to the cause.
Of course you’d have to know the value needed.
Again…..This one……7314….exactly what you ask for! https://www.aes.org/images/e-lib/thumbnails/1/4/14444_full.png
Of course you’d have to know the value needed.
Again…..This one……7314….exactly what you ask for! https://www.aes.org/images/e-lib/thumbnails/1/4/14444_full.png
What's going on with post 197? It looks like you are even managing to confuse the forum software now. 🙂
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