A horn of that size does not have the effect you want. Yes, you get a higher spl - but only as low as it loads. But that's not a horn, that's just a wave guide. That means, with the size you'll get the range of ~300-600 1-2 dB more but nothing bleow that but the low mids are already where the 10" are the weakest.
What?! No, it isn't! The V shape reduces the upper end of the 10" because they drop off at greater angles (like all speakers do, that's physics). And the phase issues between the 10"s and the compression driver can be corrected by your dsp anyway. The only thing where the phase would pose a problem and would make sense would be in elements of a line array - horizontally! There it indeed reduces the horizontal interferences from between the drivers. You can't take a single element from a line-array and expect it to work the same.
That does not lead to anywhere, it's the completely different way to approach a PA build. For your understanding, let's take one example: You wrote you want a wide dispersion of 90x50°. Well, if you want to put the horn between the two 10", you'll have ~30cm width available. With 1,4" and that size, you'll get a 60x40° horn in it, like the 18s XR1464C (27cm wide), if you want 80x50°, the 18s XR1464C does that, with the same width but wider dispersion usually needs to be bigger. But: Both are 27cm high, that means more than half of your front facing surface for the two 10" will be blocked! That means, that area/angle will not disperse mids. If you want to xo at 800Hz, there will not be much smaller horns, that's physics. Your ideas on how you want to build your speakers are not possible. I do want to help but I don't want to go through another 10 speakers again which are not possible.
Tell what you want to do with it, how many ppl are in the audience, the location (dimensions, indoors, tent, outdoors), what dispersion you need and what music you'll play or if it's live, what spl you need. I.e. Outdoors, disco dancefloor leven, live and wide dispersion is the most demanding because open air eats bass like nothing and you need enough headroom so your PA survives a feedback.
E: The V-shape will limit the dispersion to maybe ~65°.
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4x 15” BMS are for sure that outputs 138db in total. I need a very compact solution for that bass spl 140 or maybe 200hz - it depends how hight the subs will play. Thats why I thought two 10” 100db sens 700w aes will be the optimal choice. Dispersion 90x60 looking at this horn Eighteen Sound - Professional loudspeakers
And an oberton 1,4
And an oberton 1,4
Outline Spektra
OHM TRS212 and MD-MH
DAS Audio ST215
Seeburg K20 and K24
Seeburg A2 and A3
Amate Audio X102FD and P212a
Something like these cabinets. Somewhere inbetween
OHM TRS212 and MD-MH
DAS Audio ST215
Seeburg K20 and K24
Seeburg A2 and A3
Amate Audio X102FD and P212a
Something like these cabinets. Somewhere inbetween
Then there is another problem coupling two 6,5 for a different sistem. Aslo wide dispersion as they are point source. The drivers can be located vertically but idealy horizontal. The main problem is interference That I cant figure out how to deal with. One speaker sounds excellent, but as i add the second one 40cm apart, ehen walking off from axis everything fails
Im thinking if I can get a horn to 90x50, ill try that with drivers too. I was thinking yeah a small wave guide and mybe try increading the speaker compression ratio of the 10”
If you want to put them side to side the speakers need to be able to control the dispersion very well, you can only achieve that by horns or wave guides and the speaker has to be built that way. It is maybe easier to not cluster them but to use tighter dispersion speakers and use others as an near-fill. For such speakers you need solid rigging which can take the weight and provide safety to not fall onto persons. That will be expensive and not small.
Well, there are different concepts (even if it does not look so) and these are definitely not compact. I still can't say much because I need more informations, esp. the location (no adress, just general dimensions) and how many ppl. I'm afraid to suggest anything because that could easily be wrong because I have to assume too much without knowing which of it is right or not. Maybe it's better to just build the subs and rent something and after one event you'll know what was lacking, what was overkill and what was exactly right. Yes, renting costs money and I know, you want to invest that into your own PA. But if you build the wrong speakers, that will be likely a higher loss and wasted time and material than renting it for one event.
It is going to be a super compact maximum spl system. for inside events about 100sqm, and outside parties. Using the highest quality components.
Mostly we play rnb, techno, electronics so to say
Mostly we play rnb, techno, electronics so to say
It is going to be a super compact maximum spl system. for inside events about 100sqm, and outside parties. Using the highest quality components.
Mostly we play rnb, techno, electronics so to say
Mostly we play rnb, techno, electronics so to say
It is going to be a super compact maximum spl system. for inside events about 100sqm, and outside parties. Using the highest quality components.
Mostly we play rnb, techno, electronics so to say, some live acts probably also. all rounder. I think 4x15" BMS subs say it all about spl and people quantity
Mostly we play rnb, techno, electronics so to say, some live acts probably also. all rounder. I think 4x15" BMS subs say it all about spl and people quantity
Okay, that's something
"Highest quality" is an honorable goal. Though, most of the speakers you've listed use the high quality drivers with the goal to make it as loud as possible. Is that a higher priority for you than sound quality?
A dispersion of 80-90°/40-50° sounds realistic and the space is doable. With that dispersion most of the speakers you've listed drop out because of the dispersion.
Ohm TRS-212: 60x40
D.A.S ST-215: 45x40
Seeburg k20/k24: both 60x50
Seeburg Seeburg Acoustic Line A2/A3: Both 90x60 and compact but 2x 6,5" and 2x 8" won't cut it.
I couldn't find any specs about the Amate X102FD except it being a 2x12"/1" but the 1" horn driver let it drop out anyway.
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Outline Spectra II 9075 (unlike the name suggests) 95° x 90° (according to the datasheet instead of 90x75)
Amate Audio Xcellence X102FD 90º x 60º it's expensive (~4k+) but the most compact and promising but you can't recreate it because of its baffle-/horn design and it being active and dsp driven.
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If you can drop the V-configuration, you can rise the xo frequency and use a bit smaller horn driver. This kit uses a 14" bass and a 1,4"/60mm VC driver, it got almost exactly the same cone surface like two 10". The power rating is a bit lower (500W AES vs. 700W AES) - but it's smaller and will have a better dispersion pattern than the V ones. The price is nice and it sounds very good. Plus, you can cross them over a lot lower.
Outdoors is a problem, you'll need 3-4 subs per side to get closer to indoors. And outdoors profits a lot from cone surface, 18" subs are definitely not a mistake.
"Highest quality" is an honorable goal. Though, most of the speakers you've listed use the high quality drivers with the goal to make it as loud as possible. Is that a higher priority for you than sound quality?
A dispersion of 80-90°/40-50° sounds realistic and the space is doable. With that dispersion most of the speakers you've listed drop out because of the dispersion.
Ohm TRS-212: 60x40
D.A.S ST-215: 45x40
Seeburg k20/k24: both 60x50
Seeburg Seeburg Acoustic Line A2/A3: Both 90x60 and compact but 2x 6,5" and 2x 8" won't cut it.
I couldn't find any specs about the Amate X102FD except it being a 2x12"/1" but the 1" horn driver let it drop out anyway.
-
Outline Spectra II 9075 (unlike the name suggests) 95° x 90° (according to the datasheet instead of 90x75)
Amate Audio Xcellence X102FD 90º x 60º it's expensive (~4k+) but the most compact and promising but you can't recreate it because of its baffle-/horn design and it being active and dsp driven.
-
If you can drop the V-configuration, you can rise the xo frequency and use a bit smaller horn driver. This kit uses a 14" bass and a 1,4"/60mm VC driver, it got almost exactly the same cone surface like two 10". The power rating is a bit lower (500W AES vs. 700W AES) - but it's smaller and will have a better dispersion pattern than the V ones. The price is nice and it sounds very good. Plus, you can cross them over a lot lower.
Outdoors is a problem, you'll need 3-4 subs per side to get closer to indoors. And outdoors profits a lot from cone surface, 18" subs are definitely not a mistake.
That depends. But with 1 woofer and 1 cd you get a lot less interferences/lobes, and compromises. The box can be of a different shape, you just have to keep the baffle width and port size. Generally, the development time is a LOT shorter for a self developed speaker, much less measurements (esp. angle measurements). Downside: Lower max spl, it gets ~132dB. But it's fullrange usable (for smaller events) and a lot cheaper. And if you get that kit, it's already completely developed, not a ton of measurements and tons of prototype enclosures.
If that's not what you want, there are still other options. But it will help immensely if you can tell why you don't want it. 😉
I like the 2x10" approach:
The 2x10"s help to maintain the dispersion pattern down to a lower frequency - the horn is an RCF HF94, with 90x40 dispersion. If you get the mains high up, they do "throw" the sound quite well. Not because I've violated the laws of Physics, but because they're not sending so much sound down to the people standing at the front.
Those are pretty good boxes, capable of doing silly things if you feed them enough power: PA system check at Batley Rugby Stadium - YouTube
85dBC-slow at 280 feet.
Chris
The 2x10"s help to maintain the dispersion pattern down to a lower frequency - the horn is an RCF HF94, with 90x40 dispersion. If you get the mains high up, they do "throw" the sound quite well. Not because I've violated the laws of Physics, but because they're not sending so much sound down to the people standing at the front.
Those are pretty good boxes, capable of doing silly things if you feed them enough power: PA system check at Batley Rugby Stadium - YouTube
85dBC-slow at 280 feet.
Chris
There's nothing wrong with 2x10" but the V-pattern is ..not ideal.
Nope. Exactly the opposite. The 10" start higher up beaming than larger mid-woofers, therefore you can xo them higher while maintaining the same dispersion pattern horizontally. Vertically they beam more because of the two drivers cause interferences and lobing under vertical angles. I don't like the HF94 because of the adapters, they are picky with several drivers. Works decent on other drivers though.
They might be good but the video does not allow any estimate. With no wind and no people, the speaker with the concrete tribume in its back, it's easy to get 100m reach. It sounds very bad, that's mostly of course because of the camera mic. At that distance they should make 88-91dB though, that's two of them after all.
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But if I stay with 2x10 i want to try to xo them at 5k thats why zi particullary like this driver but then i need a phase plug and horn to couple them and that is not small anymore. I might try one 10” + 1”cd. And build four boxes