This is my first post here. I am a diy'r for sure. Building cabinets should be in my wheelhouse with the projects I have done in the past. I also have a history (many years prior) as being a sound tech... so I have a fair amount of knowledge of what I am wanting to accomplish...
DETAILS:
I have never owned a horn loaded sub.. I have heard them and not partial to any specific design. I have a club I own that I am building a system for. My goal is (4) total 18" Subs, and 4 full range tops (dual 12" w/ horn)- B&C F2152AN design. The room is large (tall ceilings), however we will be limited to about 300-people per code. Therefore, that system should suffice for most applications.
QUESTIONS:
1.) I believe that I want to stick with B&C based on what I have read. Which sub design should I focus on? I suspect dual 18 cabinets are too heavy to mess with (may periodically move the system). B&C offer a horn loaded 18 -- and then the typical single front mounted enclosure: S18HN & S18BN respectively. What would one offer over the other? I have read tons about the horn loaded design and see several people with strong opinions here against them.
2.) Once dialed in with the design I might want; what amplifiers do you guys recommend for these? It has been nearly 20-years since I have purchased an amp (I was a crown fan then, but realize so much more have hit the market).
3.) Design concerns: I have built other cabinets using Kreg Jig-- I think this will be my method unless there is a sound issue/or if vibrations might back these out etc? Assume with gorilla glue we are good.
4.) DSP: I assume that a DBX Driverack will be sufficient to control the subs (crossover/limiter etc) as well as the full range cabinets above that I plan to build.
That be it for now.. my goal is mostly to get some basic questions answered before digging in further. I have much more reading to do, but hope that the subs above are a good starting point for this DIY project.
DETAILS:
I have never owned a horn loaded sub.. I have heard them and not partial to any specific design. I have a club I own that I am building a system for. My goal is (4) total 18" Subs, and 4 full range tops (dual 12" w/ horn)- B&C F2152AN design. The room is large (tall ceilings), however we will be limited to about 300-people per code. Therefore, that system should suffice for most applications.
QUESTIONS:
1.) I believe that I want to stick with B&C based on what I have read. Which sub design should I focus on? I suspect dual 18 cabinets are too heavy to mess with (may periodically move the system). B&C offer a horn loaded 18 -- and then the typical single front mounted enclosure: S18HN & S18BN respectively. What would one offer over the other? I have read tons about the horn loaded design and see several people with strong opinions here against them.
2.) Once dialed in with the design I might want; what amplifiers do you guys recommend for these? It has been nearly 20-years since I have purchased an amp (I was a crown fan then, but realize so much more have hit the market).
3.) Design concerns: I have built other cabinets using Kreg Jig-- I think this will be my method unless there is a sound issue/or if vibrations might back these out etc? Assume with gorilla glue we are good.
4.) DSP: I assume that a DBX Driverack will be sufficient to control the subs (crossover/limiter etc) as well as the full range cabinets above that I plan to build.
That be it for now.. my goal is mostly to get some basic questions answered before digging in further. I have much more reading to do, but hope that the subs above are a good starting point for this DIY project.
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So I had a look at what you are sugessting.
You suggest 4 full range tops (dual 12" w/ horn)- B&C F2152AN design. but the B&C F2152AN is a dual 15" w/ horn. so more liley to have less smooth dispersion than a double 12 design,
The 2 B&C cabinets are quite basic designs.
The Ported design would benefit from bigger - longer ports Maybe 4 ports instead of 2 to help with port compression.
The Horn loaded design has better efficiency but is rolling off before 40hz. the design is a very basic short horn wich does not even have a bandpass chamber to give any extension.
The design data given is quite limited - I don't see any suggested high pass filters to limit excursion so difficult to assess what the response would be at high volume.
I also would also like to see what the Horn loaded design response would be when in a quad set and if this would give a more acceptable response.
I think that both designs have flaws & i would suggest a more advanced cabinet design would be better.
4 of the Keystone 18 subs for instance would be awesome.
You have not mentioned which B&C 18 driver you would want to use. Some of these drivers can take a lot of transient power to give plenty of headroom.
Latest amplifier designs can deliver these transients - at a cost - A Powersoft x4 for instance could deliner up to 20KW total transient power & have built in DSP so would not need a separate digital crossover for speaker management.
You suggest 4 full range tops (dual 12" w/ horn)- B&C F2152AN design. but the B&C F2152AN is a dual 15" w/ horn. so more liley to have less smooth dispersion than a double 12 design,
The 2 B&C cabinets are quite basic designs.
The Ported design would benefit from bigger - longer ports Maybe 4 ports instead of 2 to help with port compression.
The Horn loaded design has better efficiency but is rolling off before 40hz. the design is a very basic short horn wich does not even have a bandpass chamber to give any extension.
The design data given is quite limited - I don't see any suggested high pass filters to limit excursion so difficult to assess what the response would be at high volume.
I also would also like to see what the Horn loaded design response would be when in a quad set and if this would give a more acceptable response.
I think that both designs have flaws & i would suggest a more advanced cabinet design would be better.
4 of the Keystone 18 subs for instance would be awesome.
You have not mentioned which B&C 18 driver you would want to use. Some of these drivers can take a lot of transient power to give plenty of headroom.
Latest amplifier designs can deliver these transients - at a cost - A Powersoft x4 for instance could deliner up to 20KW total transient power & have built in DSP so would not need a separate digital crossover for speaker management.
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Xoc1: yes- I see that the B&C I cited is (2) 15's.. The B&C plans all pair up with specific drivers in their plans. I suppose I thought the rule of thumb was to stick to the tested/tuned driver. I don't (yet) have the knowledge to do additional cabinet tuning for specific drivers.
Therefore, I think I would rather just say-- I would like to find the best plan for single 18's, and have suggested drivers that fit those plans.
What drivers work with the Keystone 18? I have not yet researched nor found those plans. Then, is there a similar top cabinet plan for (2) 12's + horn that you recommend? Appreciate your help.
Therefore, I think I would rather just say-- I would like to find the best plan for single 18's, and have suggested drivers that fit those plans.
What drivers work with the Keystone 18? I have not yet researched nor found those plans. Then, is there a similar top cabinet plan for (2) 12's + horn that you recommend? Appreciate your help.
A classic horn subwoofer with B&C drivers is the Hog with the 18TBX100. It's not a neutral sound, but it works very well and is used by a lot of reggae soundsystems arround the world. I don't know if it fits your sound, but certainly worth a look.
Hog Scoop
An other option, that is more neutral in sound is the TH18 loaded with the B&C 18TBW100 driver. Plans are on this forum: TH-18 Flat to 35hz! (Xoc1's design)
Hog Scoop
An other option, that is more neutral in sound is the TH18 loaded with the B&C 18TBW100 driver. Plans are on this forum: TH-18 Flat to 35hz! (Xoc1's design)
18sw115 or 18tbw100 is my suggestion. Four 18tbw100 cabs will be very intense for 300 people (in an awesome way, as long as they work good in the room) and is probably what I would build. Art has mentioned some time ago that if he would not know which of the two drivers a keystone is loaded with he would have a hard time hearing any difference, so I would go with four 18tbw100 loaded. I have two 18sw115 loaded and they have served me really well, it would be nice with 10hz lower extension for the music I play sometimes but overall very happy with them. For lower extension but also lower SPL I would check out Scott Hinson 2x18" featuring the 18rbx100.
If it was me, as top cabs I would either go with Art Welters Syntripp (not a simple build) or Peter Morris 2x10" (simpler build), with one of the more budget friendly compression drivers (not the BMS) which still can reach to 650 Hz. Double 10 and Horn | Sound Forums
Or possibly Scott Hinsons single 12" top from his diyrm site on Facebook, but that would have a hard time catching up with those subs, probably awesome for what they are tho.
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Ok- thanks everyone. I am going to narrow down and start making decisions so I can get this build underway:
-Keystone with 18tbw100 drivers: x4 (four of them give me the ability to take outside on our deck and still have enough headroom for 300+ outside.
-And it looks like Peter Morris build fits what I am looking for.. I will dig more into those tops.
I cannot find a cut sheet for the keystone? I know there are 40+ pages of information, and maybe a cut sheet somewhere... but have not found yet? Anyone have that link handy?
Would like to know:
Bnentrup,
The Keystone original post #1 gives information about where to find what you want, including the link for the plans:
Keystone Sub Using 18, 15, & 12 Inch Speakers
Corrected plans are available in post # 487, including parts layout, thanks to NEO Dan, with the exception that the bottom of part "F" is 89 degrees, the front of "G" is a 5 degree angle, the back of "G" is 3 degrees as shown in post #478.
Coincidentally, I was contacted today by a fellow selling a pair of SynTripP, he built Peter Morris PM60 (or 90?) designs also. He plans to list the sale (for about the cost of drivers!) on this site.
Art
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Thanks Art! Much appreciated.. I knew I saw it when I scanned through the sea of information.. but now I have the cut-list and can get started on the cabinets. I would be super interested in the SynTripP units. I did a quick search to see if he has listed yet-- and did not find any for sale.
Interesting. I am facing a similar situation here. My brother is involved in the renovation of a night club here that used two W-Bins loaded with B&C drivers for bass, and I'm trying to convince him that he needs to replace them with some real bass bins. Several years ao we'd tried and tested a 33 Hz capable TH in the same club (think TH18, but slightly bigger) and it performed well, but this time around I'm thinking of going with a Paraflex Type A design, as the cabinet will be a bit smaller and easier to build, and it offers more protection for the driver. I haven't fully "run the numbers" yet, but the sim'd output should be pretty close to the previous TH design, with better bandwidth and out of band noise control.
These days QSC amplifiers are the way to go. Not sure where or who is making thingies labelled “Crown.”
My personal choice are Ashly amplifiers, some with raw power, others with DSP. The arrangement I would pick is the HF amplifier would have the DSP and the LF amp would be raw power driven by the DSP extra outputs on the smaller amplifier.
Least expensive quality power amplifiers are from Yamaha, except last I looked, they are back ordered by a few months!
PM me if you need a deal on the amplifiers.
My personal choice are Ashly amplifiers, some with raw power, others with DSP. The arrangement I would pick is the HF amplifier would have the DSP and the LF amp would be raw power driven by the DSP extra outputs on the smaller amplifier.
Least expensive quality power amplifiers are from Yamaha, except last I looked, they are back ordered by a few months!
PM me if you need a deal on the amplifiers.
Crown is Harman International Industries, part of Samsung today. And their amps are high quality. They are in the same quality league as QSC.
QSC are mid-range amps that generally do the job. However, the likes of Linea and Powersoft are a clear step up in performance and power density.
The Behringer NX series are about as cheap as I'd ever go. They don't hit their rated outputs, but still can still put out a useful amount of power.
Chris
Not even close. They closed the original plant. Everybody was fired or quit. They moved production. Failure rates off the production line were reaching 30% and they no longer had a service department. The folks who were engineering management retired or were fired except for a few. The powers that ran the place thought the solution was to go to contract products so to avoid the issue of production efficiency.
Crown amplifiers were hitting failure rates of 10% out of the box. QSC stays below 1% failure in the first year.
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Interesting to read that horns are still a thing.
Most subs we had were all just BR.
The vast majority of the customers even didn't want a sub-horn.
300 people is not that big, so I would just keep everything simple.
Couple of 18 inch in just BR or double 15 will do totally fine, ideally spread around the room for some bass management.
Also, I don't know if this is just a one-time job, or if you will be around to check up on things? But keeping things simple and reliable is key in general.
Nothing worse than some kind of fancy custom job with very specific parts that breaks down. With good intentions of course, but just a nightmare for the people involved when things have to be repaired.
Most subs we had were all just BR.
The vast majority of the customers even didn't want a sub-horn.
300 people is not that big, so I would just keep everything simple.
Couple of 18 inch in just BR or double 15 will do totally fine, ideally spread around the room for some bass management.
Also, I don't know if this is just a one-time job, or if you will be around to check up on things? But keeping things simple and reliable is key in general.
Nothing worse than some kind of fancy custom job with very specific parts that breaks down. With good intentions of course, but just a nightmare for the people involved when things have to be repaired.
Behringer last I looked had major design issues such as not allowing for thermal expansion between the PCB and heatsink. Also not enough output devices to allow for SOA (safe operating area) for the output transistors under worst case rated load. (A loudspeaker impedance is allowed to drop below rated impedance by as much as 50% under some rating STANDARDS.).
As to the other two, look at their maximum input power and their rated output power. Last I looked they were more than 100% efficient!!! As most folks can’t actually measure AC power draw they miss this. Also the standards they quote use millisecond level power busts as the rating. Not even enough to deliver full power for one cycle at 25 hertz. That is why apparent power density is so high. Used to be they had to deliver rated power almost continuously, but that requirement has softened a bit.
One of the amplifier manufacturer’s you mentioned produces an amplifier they claim does not use peak power but produced 20,000 watts of music power. At a 240 volt mains service that requires a bit more than 83 amps (And 100% efficiency). For some strange reason that would require 4 gauge copper wire or equivalent and no power connector just a direct wired connection. I think a standard AC mains power cord would actually fail at that power level.
Looking a bit closer I see they use a crest factor of 12 dB. Thus a 5,000 watt channel would deliver less than 232 watts continuous. But it would reasonably be rated as a 750 watt amplifier for comparison purposes, a bit lower than the 20,000 watt name.
Try connecting one of your preferred amplifiers to a subwoofer and a QSC of the same rated power to a matching subwoofer. The difference in output will be obvious even without measurement equipment. (Done that! Actually at a venue I did that was featured at the time in the underpowered manufacturer’s advertising.)
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Simon,
The crest factor bit is important. A 12dB crest factor means the amplifier is delivering 1/16th of rated power when the mains current is measured. Of course, it can deliver more power if the program material demands it. The mains current would increase accordingly - nobody is claiming >100% efficiency.
You seem to be arguing for amplifiers that are capable of continuous sine waves at full power. A question, then: can you show me some music where full-power continuous sine waves actually happen in one of the frequency bands? Let's say 30Hz-100Hz, 100Hz-1kHz, 1kHz+ for a 3-way PA system.
I have plenty of experience with QSC amplifiers, and stand by my previous statement. They don't perform miracles.
Chris
The crest factor bit is important. A 12dB crest factor means the amplifier is delivering 1/16th of rated power when the mains current is measured. Of course, it can deliver more power if the program material demands it. The mains current would increase accordingly - nobody is claiming >100% efficiency.
You seem to be arguing for amplifiers that are capable of continuous sine waves at full power. A question, then: can you show me some music where full-power continuous sine waves actually happen in one of the frequency bands? Let's say 30Hz-100Hz, 100Hz-1kHz, 1kHz+ for a 3-way PA system.
I have plenty of experience with QSC amplifiers, and stand by my previous statement. They don't perform miracles.
Chris
I also owned behringer back in the day (they were just getting started) and did not care for them. I have watched them over the years and think they have improved a bit... and, they are easy to find/buy/replace. There was actually another amp company called Crest- ironically. It looks like Peavey bought them. I was never much a fan of peavey back in the day, but I knew technicians that had them in their arsenal and they seemed to be workhorses.
I think I will stick to QSC (If I can afford the right ones that match the system) or start with Behringer and upgrade later.
No,
The maximum power line current draw is limited in some of the largest amplifiers you cited to 10.9 amps to avoid blowing the fuse. BS1613 permits outlets to be fused up to 13 amps. The largest common 230-240 volt circuit breaker is 32 amps. This is done with 2.5mm^2 wire. (14 Gauge U.S.) Even that would only support less than 7500 real watts for all four channels.
The amplifier manufacturer also lists a storage capacity of 600 joules or a bit more as the capacitor bank usually runs a bit like -20% to +80%. For a 20,000 watt amplifier that is one cycle of full power at 33 hertz. After that it is under 600 watts per channel. It just doesn't have the AC mains power available to produce more power. It would blow the AC power line fuse.
As to actual power, the amplifier driving the subwoofers is frequently run into clipping as the loudspeaker in the enclosure acts as enough of a low pass filter the distortion does not become objectionable. In some cases it is even desired.
In a large venue like a stadium with an endzone loudspeaker system even more power is required by the high frequency drivers, due to atmospheric attenuation. Clipping is also not a large worry as the harmonics really can't be reproduced well by the compression driver-horn system, followed by immense atmospheric losses.
Now the most continuous power in stadiums is during the crowd entrance. The crowd is noisy and the system runs close to full power for up to 2 hours. Typical headroom is less than 10 dB. Quite simply no one is actually listening to the music, it is just to get the excitement going.
The amplifiers you mentioned quite simply do not have realistic power ratings. They even say so in the fine print. You cannot get 20,000 useful watts out of an amplifier powered by any AC mains according to the electrical codes anywhere I am aware of.
QSC does not perform miracles, just honest work.
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Crest was popular with the pro world, before they had a loan due and sold to Peavey. They used more output transistors than their competitors, thus were more reliable, although with a bit more distortion. Turns out when driving woofers the added distortion made them sound a bit louder.
QSC is a safe choice, but be sure to look at Ashly. Stay away from used amplifiers. When there are a lot of the same models available, they are often old touring ones. As they live their life in a rack, the cosmetics are good. Some folks even replace the power supply capacitors before dumping them. However the rest of the parts have spent at least a few years running warm to hot. Tour companies know ahead of time when a manufacturer is going to discontinue a product line, so they dump them while the part number is still current. Of course they replace them with the new versions.