1W measurement attached. No difference.
Anyway, it was interesting experiment. I'm fascinated by this concept and would like to find objective measurements that can help explain the subjective experience.
Attachments
See this post by Nelson on IMD:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pas...ancel-loudspeaker-distortion.html#post5820993
Since the brain, which interprets and gives a twist to what the ears input to it, is extremely unreliable and sometimes downright lying, I would be very skeptical.
Jan
I'm not saying you can't. Sometimes feelings give you your personal answer even if you can't reason it.
But feelings are not designed to give you the exact reality. Feelings give you what you 'feel' is best for you, like 'I feel this is what I have to do'. That does not mean that that is what objectively is best for you.
I know, it's complicated.
But hearing is not the same as feeling. Hearing is all about interpreting a multitude of things, your body state, your desires, your social situation, in addition to the acoustic input to your ears. Your consciousness then brings a perception to the front and that is what you experience as what you hear. The key understanding is that a) there is no direct line from your ears to what you 'hear' and b) what you hear is build from a complex of factors of which the movement of the cilia in your ears is just one part.
Jan
But feelings are not designed to give you the exact reality. Feelings give you what you 'feel' is best for you, like 'I feel this is what I have to do'. That does not mean that that is what objectively is best for you.
I know, it's complicated.
But hearing is not the same as feeling. Hearing is all about interpreting a multitude of things, your body state, your desires, your social situation, in addition to the acoustic input to your ears. Your consciousness then brings a perception to the front and that is what you experience as what you hear. The key understanding is that a) there is no direct line from your ears to what you 'hear' and b) what you hear is build from a complex of factors of which the movement of the cilia in your ears is just one part.
Jan
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Yes, lots of science and research results. This is something that has intrigued lots of people that noticed discrepancies between what they felt and experienced, and reality. Obviously sound perception has been studied ad nauseum (sp?) and is well documented by for instance Toole, but the list is very long.
People like Antonio Damasio have researched the link between feeling, emotion, objective reality etc.
If you are really interested in this, a simple Google page will keep you occupied for years to come ;-)
Jan
People like Antonio Damasio have researched the link between feeling, emotion, objective reality etc.
If you are really interested in this, a simple Google page will keep you occupied for years to come ;-)
Jan
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It's your attribution of your explanation to hearing I was referring to. Toole's results are measurable and repeatable. I'm wondering if there is data to show someone can "hear" things differently under varying circumstances when the exact same thing is being produced in each.
I'll see if I can find a reference. But I am sure many here have experienced this first-hand. Different appreciations of the music listened to depending on time of day, whether you are rested or tired, stressed or calm.
I know it isn't scientific per se, but I'd say it is so obvious that it hardly needs mentioning.
Jan
I know it isn't scientific per se, but I'd say it is so obvious that it hardly needs mentioning.
Jan
No, maybe I haven't been clear. It is the interpretation that varies, predominantly. Physiological properties in the bodily parts that receive, code and transmit the sound do also vary but that was not what I meant.
What I meant was experiences like this one (this research was limited to loudness perception only): Perception of Loudness Is Influenced by Emotion
Loudness perception is thought to be a modular system that is unaffected by other brain systems. We tested the hypothesis that loudness perception can be influenced by negative affect using a conditioning paradigm, where some auditory stimuli were paired with aversive experiences while others were not. We found that the same auditory stimulus was reported as being louder, more negative and fear-inducing when it was conditioned with an aversive experience, compared to when it was used as a control stimulus. This result provides support for an important role of emotion in auditory perception.
Jan
What I meant was experiences like this one (this research was limited to loudness perception only): Perception of Loudness Is Influenced by Emotion
Loudness perception is thought to be a modular system that is unaffected by other brain systems. We tested the hypothesis that loudness perception can be influenced by negative affect using a conditioning paradigm, where some auditory stimuli were paired with aversive experiences while others were not. We found that the same auditory stimulus was reported as being louder, more negative and fear-inducing when it was conditioned with an aversive experience, compared to when it was used as a control stimulus. This result provides support for an important role of emotion in auditory perception.
Jan
We once tried both a Behringer EP4000 and a pair of Dan Dagostion mono blocks on a set of Magico Q7. In some way - difficult to describe - the DD mono amps sounded a tiny bit better. But thinking of the HUGE price difference - then the biggest difference, was adding two subwoofers with DSP and hereby "cleaning" up the lowest octave.
We also tested tube amps, vs SS and class D - which mostly ended up with "soft" bass for tubes, stronger/tighter bass for SS and sometimes an annoying distortion with class D. But this was in general and not absolute - and most pronounced with speakers that had an impedance that dipped low.
We also tested tube amps, vs SS and class D - which mostly ended up with "soft" bass for tubes, stronger/tighter bass for SS and sometimes an annoying distortion with class D. But this was in general and not absolute - and most pronounced with speakers that had an impedance that dipped low.
1.3% @ 1W 100Hz speaker distortion is perhaps 30dB+ higher than the DEF. You are correct that it will be very difficult to see. Thank you for sharing your findings.
As an additional note, perception of soundstage would probably be most affected by acoustic parameters around 600-2kHz.
What if amps really do sound very different? HONESTLY and SIGNIFICANTLY different?
What if an average person of 62 years can clearly hear this?
What if you don't happen have loudspeakers and designed room acoustics that can accurately transduce the electrical domain into the acoustic domain?
Then of course you will decide all amps sound the same or at least very similar. I propose to you that different amps sound wildly different and if you can't hear this you simply haven't the necessary tools.
The elephant in the room are loudspeakers and acoustics. Horns provide the answer.
Have a nice day - Langston
What if an average person of 62 years can clearly hear this?
What if you don't happen have loudspeakers and designed room acoustics that can accurately transduce the electrical domain into the acoustic domain?
Then of course you will decide all amps sound the same or at least very similar. I propose to you that different amps sound wildly different and if you can't hear this you simply haven't the necessary tools.
The elephant in the room are loudspeakers and acoustics. Horns provide the answer.
Have a nice day - Langston
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Yes, I would. I am not invested into multi-thousand dollar amps. I just want better sound. I have a pile of amps that measure better in every department and yet they are gathering dust. I also believe that measurements tell a story and are very valuable.