I refer to the thread title which is IMO inaccurate. If accuracy in knowledge is required, to visit this set of forum pages then we should know firstly what analog line level is, and what equipment analog line level actually relates to. Our sub list of equipment presently reading as Preamplifiers , Passive Pre-amps, Crossovers, etc.
Will after a few pages here hopefully be seen to be quite inaccurate, and collectively be asked to aspire to greater accuracy to assert the pages knowing what line level actually is and only include equipment in discussion that actually uses Analog Line level.
As example would if we adopt the AES guidelines, would include as well as consumer line level and professional level equipment, also microphones and musical instruments.
Can we have firstly perhaps seek consensus on the definition of Analog line level
1. Consumer line level, can we agree this is the majority of audio equipment forum
members use.
expressed as -10dBv or nominal level 0.316V
RMS , or Peak amplitude V pk 0.447v or Vpp 0.894 ,
2.Professional equipment expressed as +4dBU , or nominal level 1.228V RMS
Peak amplitude Vpk 1.736 or Vpp 3,472
We should find in our understanding that consumer line level is bound already to the manufacture of CD's DVD's and the same same standards are used by streaming services. historically there was break away from this called the Loudness wars, but was sensibly brought back into line, when someone woke up that, dynamics were unable to be reproduced. ( this does not discount the inevitable use of companding that awaits )
Professional level is different in that DAW's and the like are constantly trying to achieve as high a dynamic range as possible at the recording stage,( Companding is the answer for everyone ) however professional level still applies to equipment in recording studios, and some equipment that can be used in domestic settings, but is typically balanced audio, and may have much incompatibility if used with consumer line level.
as a reference the AES ( Audio engineering society ) define line level here:
Pro Audio Reference (L)
"levels Terms used to describe relative audio signal levels: (Also see decibel).
mic-level Nominal signal coming directly from a microphone (before any digital conversion if present). Very low, in the microvolts, and requires a preamp with at least 60 dB gain before using with any line-level equipment.
line-level Standard +4 dBu (pro) or -10 dBV (consumer) audio levels. See decibel.
Instrument-level Nominal signal from musical instruments using electrical pick-ups. Varies widely, from very low mic-levels to quite large line-levels.'
There is scope already for DAC's to have amplification stages in them altering line level ... but this I invite blurs discussion of analog line level itself , if we base ourselves on accuracy going forward.
Over to you.
Will after a few pages here hopefully be seen to be quite inaccurate, and collectively be asked to aspire to greater accuracy to assert the pages knowing what line level actually is and only include equipment in discussion that actually uses Analog Line level.
As example would if we adopt the AES guidelines, would include as well as consumer line level and professional level equipment, also microphones and musical instruments.
Can we have firstly perhaps seek consensus on the definition of Analog line level
1. Consumer line level, can we agree this is the majority of audio equipment forum
members use.
expressed as -10dBv or nominal level 0.316V
RMS , or Peak amplitude V pk 0.447v or Vpp 0.894 ,
2.Professional equipment expressed as +4dBU , or nominal level 1.228V RMS
Peak amplitude Vpk 1.736 or Vpp 3,472
We should find in our understanding that consumer line level is bound already to the manufacture of CD's DVD's and the same same standards are used by streaming services. historically there was break away from this called the Loudness wars, but was sensibly brought back into line, when someone woke up that, dynamics were unable to be reproduced. ( this does not discount the inevitable use of companding that awaits )
Professional level is different in that DAW's and the like are constantly trying to achieve as high a dynamic range as possible at the recording stage,( Companding is the answer for everyone ) however professional level still applies to equipment in recording studios, and some equipment that can be used in domestic settings, but is typically balanced audio, and may have much incompatibility if used with consumer line level.
as a reference the AES ( Audio engineering society ) define line level here:
Pro Audio Reference (L)
"levels Terms used to describe relative audio signal levels: (Also see decibel).
mic-level Nominal signal coming directly from a microphone (before any digital conversion if present). Very low, in the microvolts, and requires a preamp with at least 60 dB gain before using with any line-level equipment.
line-level Standard +4 dBu (pro) or -10 dBV (consumer) audio levels. See decibel.
Instrument-level Nominal signal from musical instruments using electrical pick-ups. Varies widely, from very low mic-levels to quite large line-levels.'
There is scope already for DAC's to have amplification stages in them altering line level ... but this I invite blurs discussion of analog line level itself , if we base ourselves on accuracy going forward.
Over to you.
Chris -
Although you get a high standard of engineering help here on DIY AUDIO --- as the title suggests the website is orientated towards helping those building & repairing audio equipment .
This includes those not in the profession or not in business but is looked upon as a website where a young guy ( or gal ) can come for help without being patronised or told --as I have come across on so called "profession " websites where the poster gets short shrift and told to look elsewhere.
As such it presents a welcoming friendly manner and not a snobbish "I am better than you" approach.
Long may that last .
Although you get a high standard of engineering help here on DIY AUDIO --- as the title suggests the website is orientated towards helping those building & repairing audio equipment .
This includes those not in the profession or not in business but is looked upon as a website where a young guy ( or gal ) can come for help without being patronised or told --as I have come across on so called "profession " websites where the poster gets short shrift and told to look elsewhere.
As such it presents a welcoming friendly manner and not a snobbish "I am better than you" approach.
Long may that last .
European Broadcasting Union called R68 differs from the American -Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers standard called RP155 where +4dBu=-20dBFS,you also have semi-professional standard level output =-10dBV are you implying bin the EU standard for the USA one ?
Some equipment has input switches allowing =+4----and -10 for integration of professional & semi-professional setups.
The equipment on DIY Audio is mostly NON-professional so defining or changing the heading to "professional standards " would not tie in with the general trend here .
Some equipment has input switches allowing =+4----and -10 for integration of professional & semi-professional setups.
The equipment on DIY Audio is mostly NON-professional so defining or changing the heading to "professional standards " would not tie in with the general trend here .
Seems like someone figuring this stuff out for the first time, wanting to show of how much of an expert they are
The request is a can of worms. We had to navigate what forum subtitles were needed and what they meant. The discussion took some time and was thorough. Like everything it is a compromise.
We will revisit it i am sure when we get to that stage of the migration to the new forum platform.
dave
We will revisit it i am sure when we get to that stage of the migration to the new forum platform.
dave
Yes that's how it should be, for those being introduced to audio , if only that was the case here ... but only a few posts away, IMO it deteriorates again.
To the topic:
The USA and EU standards are the same as I see, with the EU standard its just obfuscated slightly by introducing dBFS - like their foot in the door.
Yes I agree, noting Analog line level as a term, is both... inviting the thread heading needs refining, to accommodate the trend, but also allowing the other when discussing Analog Line level.
Yes, observing that presently the sub forum title has discussion about topics that are now not Analog Line level related at all.... therein the problem. Like very difficult to navigate thread drift encouraged by the wrong sub forum title.
Post #6 admits the problem, and suggests we put up with compromise ?? 😱
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If management decides to revisit the issue
that will not happen until the future forum transition.
The technicalities you are raising are irrelevant at this time.
that will not happen until the future forum transition.
The technicalities you are raising are irrelevant at this time.
We can be as pedantic as we want about the categories, but the system has bigger problems than that. Many discussions could belong to 2 or 3 of our existing forums, but the current rigid system doesn't allow it. When we make the move we will have tools to start addressing much of this while working toward a more flexible way of seeing things. It will be an ongoing process, not an immediate fix. We know there is a problem and are working on it, however the fix might not be what expect.
Tagging threads
and even posts within threads
would be ideal IMO.
But it takes work to maintain the tagging taxonomy
and even posts within threads
would be ideal IMO.
But it takes work to maintain the tagging taxonomy
I'd suggest replacing "line level" with "signal processing", as in "analog signal processing", "digital signal processing".