Seeking DiyA masterclass, crossovers points and sim - emulation advices', and bass driver substitutes suggestions, suppositions, and emu-simulstions for a first-timer "expensive" project, built right in the original Yamaha NS1000M Cabinets.
I am going to try a pair of SEAS 26mm Dark-DIAMOND twtrs and have a goal of say an 800hz crossover for the tweeters, as well as the original 500hz for the 79mm Beryllium midrange in the NS1000M cabinetz I am aiming at doing a "given a makeover," to. Bass concerns me a bit and the crossover networks do too, bit something like the ns1000M woofers but far faster and cleaner is the goal, I would like to leave the cabinets sealed.
And so far I have asked someone about help designing a great system and crossovers, which I have very little experience reading of, and next to no practical experience designing.
I found the SEAS DARK diamond for 5k a pr, have original ns1000M cabinets and miss, and will want to Mill a 1/2" thick Al adaptor for one of accuton's Ceramic 8" or 10" bass drivers. Or whatever drivers one would suggest for an NS1000M Cabinet,
Please start hacking this idea away! Seeking thrilling advice and good help in a "cheap" shot at potentially tri-amping or doing whatever would work well to attain the ultimate passive 'cost-effective' speakers.
The GOAL of the project is to use these for studio capture for a SMYTH-RESEARCH REALISER A16 for up to 25 or 35 channel, over headphones, planar, dynamic, and electrostatic, or Ribbon with headphone-equalisation target-normalizing, and for more traditional exclusive use in the home... -sort of experience.
Paint job suggestion colors for the NS1000M cabinet are also welcome! But I am nominating Mclaren's Mauvin Blue
I am also unsure whether I can Prefer leaving the "±little" NS1000M cabinet alone, I would rather have a closed box for better bass control if it is achievable.
Amplifiers will be up-to 3X YAMAHA CR2040, AND EACH of those amplifiers have SUPERB tone controls and bass Filters, treble filters and amplitude adjustment to fine tune for a room the speakers are placed into.
Original thick
1/2" thick aluminum front Baffle plate is also possible for the driver mounts, but the speaker may (?) prefer 1/2" or 3/8" Thick Al Aadaptors into the original NS1000M "12-driver, wood section instead.
Please pitch in. I can really use the help from engineering class, gradient diyA-ers.
So far I have considered...
Wavesix FEA/BEA ANAlysis,
And a few other box simulators kindly made available online. There is also a 150$ package for speaker design with fairly rich feature-set.
Looking for advice on crossovers in the 1000M cabinet, especially... on 1st,/4th orders, fine crossover techniques, that may he applicable to this cabinet with this idea of paired drivers from the three makers.
Pics will follow over time.
I am going to try a pair of SEAS 26mm Dark-DIAMOND twtrs and have a goal of say an 800hz crossover for the tweeters, as well as the original 500hz for the 79mm Beryllium midrange in the NS1000M cabinetz I am aiming at doing a "given a makeover," to. Bass concerns me a bit and the crossover networks do too, bit something like the ns1000M woofers but far faster and cleaner is the goal, I would like to leave the cabinets sealed.
And so far I have asked someone about help designing a great system and crossovers, which I have very little experience reading of, and next to no practical experience designing.
I found the SEAS DARK diamond for 5k a pr, have original ns1000M cabinets and miss, and will want to Mill a 1/2" thick Al adaptor for one of accuton's Ceramic 8" or 10" bass drivers. Or whatever drivers one would suggest for an NS1000M Cabinet,
Please start hacking this idea away! Seeking thrilling advice and good help in a "cheap" shot at potentially tri-amping or doing whatever would work well to attain the ultimate passive 'cost-effective' speakers.
The GOAL of the project is to use these for studio capture for a SMYTH-RESEARCH REALISER A16 for up to 25 or 35 channel, over headphones, planar, dynamic, and electrostatic, or Ribbon with headphone-equalisation target-normalizing, and for more traditional exclusive use in the home... -sort of experience.
Paint job suggestion colors for the NS1000M cabinet are also welcome! But I am nominating Mclaren's Mauvin Blue
I am also unsure whether I can Prefer leaving the "±little" NS1000M cabinet alone, I would rather have a closed box for better bass control if it is achievable.
Amplifiers will be up-to 3X YAMAHA CR2040, AND EACH of those amplifiers have SUPERB tone controls and bass Filters, treble filters and amplitude adjustment to fine tune for a room the speakers are placed into.
Original thick
1/2" thick aluminum front Baffle plate is also possible for the driver mounts, but the speaker may (?) prefer 1/2" or 3/8" Thick Al Aadaptors into the original NS1000M "12-driver, wood section instead.
Please pitch in. I can really use the help from engineering class, gradient diyA-ers.
So far I have considered...
Wavesix FEA/BEA ANAlysis,
And a few other box simulators kindly made available online. There is also a 150$ package for speaker design with fairly rich feature-set.
Looking for advice on crossovers in the 1000M cabinet, especially... on 1st,/4th orders, fine crossover techniques, that may he applicable to this cabinet with this idea of paired drivers from the three makers.
Pics will follow over time.
Sounds like an absolute mess.
Maybe read a few more threads about designing speakers in general and reusing cabinets.
Suggested starting points.
Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement
So you want to design your own speaker from scratch!
Maybe read a few more threads about designing speakers in general and reusing cabinets.
Suggested starting points.
Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement
So you want to design your own speaker from scratch!
Thanks, I appreciate that, any additional experienced contacts would be good as well, and thank you.
Do you expect to be compensated for in case something happened to the tweeters, since you intend to instruct the x/o designer to cross it over at 800Hz, even though you admit being inexperienced in loudspeaker design?
well I am not so pessimistic about the prospects for this project. It has excellent potential, but it will need a sophisticated design and execution. I am not sure I would have selected those drivers for a new design, but you already have them, so now you need to design a system using them.
800 Hz is way too low for that tweeter. The big Yamaha dome mid will easily go fairly high, so why not try 2 kHz as a starting point?
A woofer does not have to be uber-expensive to be uber-good. Widen your search beyond Accuton.
Re-using the existing cabinet may be the biggest limitation. You will probably achieve much higher performance if you design and build (or have built) a new cabinet.
Good luck !
800 Hz is way too low for that tweeter. The big Yamaha dome mid will easily go fairly high, so why not try 2 kHz as a starting point?
A woofer does not have to be uber-expensive to be uber-good. Widen your search beyond Accuton.
Re-using the existing cabinet may be the biggest limitation. You will probably achieve much higher performance if you design and build (or have built) a new cabinet.
Good luck !
It is exciting, just don’t rush into spending large sums right away. You will be starting from scratch and a three-way is twice as hard as a two-way.
Apart from having design targets (including frequency response, power response and overall output levels), one also needs to carefully understand the performance envelope of the JA-801 and the drivers around it, their limitations (all drivers have these) and why the mid was used as it was in the NS-1000 and 1000M.
Be aware that while the acoustic high-pass response for the mid is at 500Hz, the woofer and mid merge around 720Hz since the mid is attenuated to compensate for baffle step losses. You want the woofer to do the hard work here as it did in the original design. I would advise against trying to low-pass the woofer so they merge exactly at 500Hz or trying to accentuate the lower frequency end of the mid, because that would be asking a lot of the midrange so close to its fundamental mechanical resonance frequency. Be aware that if you are referencing the sound if the NS-1000/M, the proper listening axis was not at tweeter height. That’s a widespread misconception around this speaker. The specified listening height for the NS-1000/M was center relative to the cabinet, up to the point between the mid and tweeter. Any higher will result in a noticeable phase error which can cause the tweeter to be perceived louder than the midrange.
If this is going to be an active crossover, ensure the tweeters and mids have capacitors to attenuate thumps or other transients.
The $5000 Seas tweeters and Accuton woofers with crossover points of 500Hz and 800Hz are puzzling. Take no offence, but I had to read your original post more than once to try and understand, and I still don’t. Did a consultant suggest such a thing? Using the JA-0801 mid as a “filler” from 500-800Hz is a waste of one of the best midranges. I know from testing that the JA-0802A has a response to over 22kHz. Adding to that, crossing the Seas diamond over at 800Hz will sound terrible up to the hour it’s coil burns into an open circuit state. If you really plan to use the mids like that, I advise against it. Do a two-way speaker because your chance of success will be greater.
If you want to use the mids, it has to be done correctly and that means following what the manufacturer did and tailoring it to your requirements. Again, look at what Yamaha did.
For woofers, the ScanSpeak 30W4558T00 is a well-behaved, high excursion woofer that can be used into the midrange region and is without a rising response or breakup near the crossover frequency. There are other suitable woofers as well. Look at Audio Technology’s C-quenze.
For tweeters, consider the SB Acoustics SB29 series beryllium tweeters. The drivers can compliment the mid with 18dB/octave acoustic slopes for similar vertical behaviour as per the original speaker, although the crossover will need retooling to achieve that slope. The SB beryllium tweeters can be retrofitted into an adaptor to sit flush in the NS-1000 cabinets. I already designed a 3D printable part for this and applied for a provisional patent, as original parts are scarce as hen’s teeth. If you need the adaptor pieces, I could make it happen.
Before my stroke, I used to design crossover modifications to match response, phase, attenuator action and impedance so that different generation Yamaha JA-0513 tweeters would behave as factory matches.
Below was the set of I was designing and was about ready to export the G-code:
Apart from having design targets (including frequency response, power response and overall output levels), one also needs to carefully understand the performance envelope of the JA-801 and the drivers around it, their limitations (all drivers have these) and why the mid was used as it was in the NS-1000 and 1000M.
Be aware that while the acoustic high-pass response for the mid is at 500Hz, the woofer and mid merge around 720Hz since the mid is attenuated to compensate for baffle step losses. You want the woofer to do the hard work here as it did in the original design. I would advise against trying to low-pass the woofer so they merge exactly at 500Hz or trying to accentuate the lower frequency end of the mid, because that would be asking a lot of the midrange so close to its fundamental mechanical resonance frequency. Be aware that if you are referencing the sound if the NS-1000/M, the proper listening axis was not at tweeter height. That’s a widespread misconception around this speaker. The specified listening height for the NS-1000/M was center relative to the cabinet, up to the point between the mid and tweeter. Any higher will result in a noticeable phase error which can cause the tweeter to be perceived louder than the midrange.
If this is going to be an active crossover, ensure the tweeters and mids have capacitors to attenuate thumps or other transients.
The $5000 Seas tweeters and Accuton woofers with crossover points of 500Hz and 800Hz are puzzling. Take no offence, but I had to read your original post more than once to try and understand, and I still don’t. Did a consultant suggest such a thing? Using the JA-0801 mid as a “filler” from 500-800Hz is a waste of one of the best midranges. I know from testing that the JA-0802A has a response to over 22kHz. Adding to that, crossing the Seas diamond over at 800Hz will sound terrible up to the hour it’s coil burns into an open circuit state. If you really plan to use the mids like that, I advise against it. Do a two-way speaker because your chance of success will be greater.
If you want to use the mids, it has to be done correctly and that means following what the manufacturer did and tailoring it to your requirements. Again, look at what Yamaha did.
For woofers, the ScanSpeak 30W4558T00 is a well-behaved, high excursion woofer that can be used into the midrange region and is without a rising response or breakup near the crossover frequency. There are other suitable woofers as well. Look at Audio Technology’s C-quenze.
For tweeters, consider the SB Acoustics SB29 series beryllium tweeters. The drivers can compliment the mid with 18dB/octave acoustic slopes for similar vertical behaviour as per the original speaker, although the crossover will need retooling to achieve that slope. The SB beryllium tweeters can be retrofitted into an adaptor to sit flush in the NS-1000 cabinets. I already designed a 3D printable part for this and applied for a provisional patent, as original parts are scarce as hen’s teeth. If you need the adaptor pieces, I could make it happen.
Before my stroke, I used to design crossover modifications to match response, phase, attenuator action and impedance so that different generation Yamaha JA-0513 tweeters would behave as factory matches.
Below was the set of I was designing and was about ready to export the G-code:
the audio biz is a mafia ... they like to fool the people with fancy words ... but all those beryllium and diamond tweeters still rely on a fabric surround that alters the sound in a non-predictable way ... so why throwing tons of money for a tweeter with questionable suspension quality?
the suspension (and the coating) accounts for the restoring force after the leading edge has reach the peak voltage , not the dome/cone whatsoever ... therefore it plays an important role ...
******** engineering hast brought us bad ribbon transducers with "aluminium" conductors but its the worst material you can think of for this kind of job!
Only the hyperold berillium ribbon tweeter from Pioneer has reference properties so why they are able to invent such cool stuff in the past some 50 years ago?
yes very funny to see hyped tweeters from SB Acoustics with very broad very soft fabric thick coated with doubtful quality soundwise ...
the suspension (and the coating) accounts for the restoring force after the leading edge has reach the peak voltage , not the dome/cone whatsoever ... therefore it plays an important role ...
******** engineering hast brought us bad ribbon transducers with "aluminium" conductors but its the worst material you can think of for this kind of job!
Only the hyperold berillium ribbon tweeter from Pioneer has reference properties so why they are able to invent such cool stuff in the past some 50 years ago?
yes very funny to see hyped tweeters from SB Acoustics with very broad very soft fabric thick coated with doubtful quality soundwise ...
Questionable? You can see the surrounds impact on the performance of the tweeter in its frequency response, impedance and distortion measurements.
This is absolutely false. The restoring force is provided by the amplifier controlling the voice coil. The leading edge reaches its peak voltage and then decays with the amplifier controlling the voice coil as the decay occurs. Only around resonance does the tweeters suspension properties start to play a role in its behaviour. And no one should be using this tweeter close to resonance.
What's wrong with aluminium as a conductor?
5th element has beat me to it...
If there were chaotic motions with these "broad very soft fabric thick coated" surround, it would show up in the frequency response, the impedance response, the CSD and burst-decay plots. guess what... it doesn't.
If there were chaotic motions with these "broad very soft fabric thick coated" surround, it would show up in the frequency response, the impedance response, the CSD and burst-decay plots. guess what... it doesn't.
What properties do you find questionable? I don’t believe you’ve performed measurements on drivers.
That claim is false and looks based on a misunderstanding of the electrical and mechanical forces acting on moving assembly. As the audio signal falls, or inverts, the coil follows with that signal. It doesn’t return to rest until the signal ceases.
This is more nonsense. The Raal D70-20 and 70-10, for example, perform exemplary.
Where is this hype you write of? Voice Coil, an industry magazine, evaluated these and found they performed well. Are you just making it up then?
Going to get down and dirty in the coming weeks with this project. Thanks to all for the advice, and the excellent and highly qualified Contacts.
Thank you each for responding and your attention
Thank you each for responding and your attention
Why? What's the problem with Danny Richie?
He apears pretty legit to me, aside from his company GR-research he has a forum on AudioCircle and posts videos on YouTube?
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Interesting project! For woofers I would look to Acoustic Elegance; they a have a variety of options. The physical size of the mid restricts how closely you can space the tweeter. I would have gone for one of the small-faceplate beryllium or ceramic tweeters that would enable closer mounting (not in the the original cabinet layout, though). A medium-priced ribbon would also work well with this midrange if you cross over at around 3kHz. However, a tweeter that can comfortably 2kHz would be better. You chose a fairly exotic tweeter, though. There was no real need for that. Most of the performance gains that the better, more expensive tweeters offer is on their lower end, but with this mid you won't have to cross the tweeter over low at all.
FWIW, if I had an NS-1000 with (I presume) dead tweeters, I would keep the enclosure and convert it to bass reflex. I would reduce the mid-tweet crossover frequency to the 2kHz to 3kHz range, depending on how the new tweeter and mid range measure comparatively.
FWIW, if I had an NS-1000 with (I presume) dead tweeters, I would keep the enclosure and convert it to bass reflex. I would reduce the mid-tweet crossover frequency to the 2kHz to 3kHz range, depending on how the new tweeter and mid range measure comparatively.