Just for fun I bought some "100% genuine" transistors from China. They were the price of a lottery ticket and my odds were slightly better. To my amazement they don't carry any of the telltale signs of being fake. Don't worry I won't use these in anything that actually matters....
Here they are (bottom) next to some genuine transistors from Digi-Key (top) and also some of the original Hitachi ones.
(large)
But what really intrigued me is how much the "Toshiba" transistors look like ON Semiconductor. I was aware that Toshiba had started outsourcing their part fabs to companies other than Hitachi. So the question is, are these original Toshiba spec made by On Semi?
genuine TTC004, genuine TTA004, genuine 2SC3421, mystery A1360, mystery C3423, genuine KSC3503, genuine KSA1381, genuine KSD1692
left two - mystery transistors
right two - mystery transistors
middle two - mystery transistors
(large)
Notice the (A) mold imprint on the back of one while the one with the shorter leads has nothing. The Toshibas have (W3) however.
The back of the 1360 resembles the Toshiba's flat black finish so that begs the question - are the TTA/TTC line also made in the same fab plant as On Semi?
Here they are (bottom) next to some genuine transistors from Digi-Key (top) and also some of the original Hitachi ones.
But what really intrigued me is how much the "Toshiba" transistors look like ON Semiconductor. I was aware that Toshiba had started outsourcing their part fabs to companies other than Hitachi. So the question is, are these original Toshiba spec made by On Semi?
genuine TTC004, genuine TTA004, genuine 2SC3421, mystery A1360, mystery C3423, genuine KSC3503, genuine KSA1381, genuine KSD1692
left two - mystery transistors
right two - mystery transistors
middle two - mystery transistors
Notice the (A) mold imprint on the back of one while the one with the shorter leads has nothing. The Toshibas have (W3) however.
The back of the 1360 resembles the Toshiba's flat black finish so that begs the question - are the TTA/TTC line also made in the same fab plant as On Semi?
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They are probably also buying the same leaframes from the same supplier. They may even be outsourcing the packaging operations. If they are using some place like Unisem, the tooling will even be the same for an industry standard package.
While something like that could happen, I don't think Toshiba ever owned the moulds. My theory goes something like this...
Toshiba was the original brainchild behind the 1.8db transistor. They own the IP. Hitachi tooled up and manufactured them. Their transistors are all unique and it was an exclusive club, however it got too expensive to manufacture them and Hitachi couldn't lower their costs. The companies exchanged words and parted ways. In a last ditch effort to sell their product, Toshiba licensed them to On Semi who undercut Hitachi but produced substandard product. The same goes for all the clones out there. Toshiba got pissy and pulled all the contracts and went in a different direction, producing transistors that other companies could manufacture. The to-126 builds are designed to work decently without grasping at tiny capacitance and noise figures, while the SMT devices can more easily achieve those numbers.
Just spit-balling here. Don't actually have any inside information.
Meanwhile ON Semi owns Fairchild, Sanyo, Zatex, Tesla Zatem, Nexperia, LSI Logic, and Analog Devices. Did I miss any big ones? They don't need to buy machines. They just swallow everyone up that they can.
And that's really what the KSA/KTA/TTA lines are. Designs that are half decent and can actually be built in Malasia/Korea/etc. The end of an era.
Toshiba was the original brainchild behind the 1.8db transistor. They own the IP. Hitachi tooled up and manufactured them. Their transistors are all unique and it was an exclusive club, however it got too expensive to manufacture them and Hitachi couldn't lower their costs. The companies exchanged words and parted ways. In a last ditch effort to sell their product, Toshiba licensed them to On Semi who undercut Hitachi but produced substandard product. The same goes for all the clones out there. Toshiba got pissy and pulled all the contracts and went in a different direction, producing transistors that other companies could manufacture. The to-126 builds are designed to work decently without grasping at tiny capacitance and noise figures, while the SMT devices can more easily achieve those numbers.
Just spit-balling here. Don't actually have any inside information.
Meanwhile ON Semi owns Fairchild, Sanyo, Zatex, Tesla Zatem, Nexperia, LSI Logic, and Analog Devices. Did I miss any big ones? They don't need to buy machines. They just swallow everyone up that they can.
And that's really what the KSA/KTA/TTA lines are. Designs that are half decent and can actually be built in Malasia/Korea/etc. The end of an era.
ON Semi definitely does not own Analog Devices nor Nexperia which is actually owned by the Wing Group (China). Nexperia is an NXP spin off, and NXP itself was a Philips spin off. I don't know anything about the others you mention.. 😀
There are many third party companies that mount and encapsulate other people's dies like Rochester Electronics which is the industry standard source of last resort for many major supplier discontinued parts..
Undoubtedly there are companies in Malaysia and the Philippines that package semiconductors for several suppliers.
There are many third party companies that mount and encapsulate other people's dies like Rochester Electronics which is the industry standard source of last resort for many major supplier discontinued parts..
Undoubtedly there are companies in Malaysia and the Philippines that package semiconductors for several suppliers.
My mistake. They do not own Nexperia.
They did however purchase some of Analog Devices. It was a couple hundred million dollar deal I remember.
I'm afraid to claim these are "genuine" because that claim will surely be refuted... but will anyone out there concede that these might in fact be the shameful bastard child of Toshiba and On Semi that daddy intended to sweep under the rug?
They did however purchase some of Analog Devices. It was a couple hundred million dollar deal I remember.
I'm afraid to claim these are "genuine" because that claim will surely be refuted... but will anyone out there concede that these might in fact be the shameful bastard child of Toshiba and On Semi that daddy intended to sweep under the rug?
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I found, that both KSC/KSA, and TTC/TTA parts are high quality. Your Chineese 3423/1360 looks reprinted KSC/KSA anyway...
It gets harder to track in the chip business...NS was broken up, some of the Cyrix business went to VIA in Taiwan, and some went to TI.
And VIA got to own some patents that were cross licensed to Intel, which resulted in Intel having to give some rights to the Socket 370 (Pentium III) to VIA, who made their versions of the chips.
Intel got around those for the Pentium 4 onwards, which is why you don't see many independent chip sets on mother boards now.
I wonder if there are silicon foundries for transistors, like TSMC for chips....you give the specifications, and they are made for you.
And VIA got to own some patents that were cross licensed to Intel, which resulted in Intel having to give some rights to the Socket 370 (Pentium III) to VIA, who made their versions of the chips.
Intel got around those for the Pentium 4 onwards, which is why you don't see many independent chip sets on mother boards now.
I wonder if there are silicon foundries for transistors, like TSMC for chips....you give the specifications, and they are made for you.
Philips owned Mallard (Mullard?) in the UK, later they shifted the discrete business to NXP, which was to be sold to Freescale or ON...On is the old Motorola business, Freescale came from the chip side.
Not much need to remember all this, stick to new parts from a reputed trader.
If you jeans fit, all is well....no need to find out where the fabric came from.
DIY quantities are not enough to sustain a factory, bear that in mind.
Not much need to remember all this, stick to new parts from a reputed trader.
If you jeans fit, all is well....no need to find out where the fabric came from.
DIY quantities are not enough to sustain a factory, bear that in mind.
Mullard was a British producer of valves which did indeed get taken over by Philips, along with Signetics. Philips spun off the semiconductor business into NXP, which then spun the discrete and small scale semi division into Nexperia. The passives part of Philips became BC Components, which ended up as part of Vishay
ON is the discrete semiconductor part of Motorola, the integrated circuit division became Freescale. Freescale got bought out by NXP.
It's a long and winding road 😉
I really dont bother with eBay etc. If I can't buy it at Digikey, i'm not interested - unless it's some NOS part such as a memory IC
This is perhaps getting to my point that I didn't know I had. So here it is...
Is the making of the best audio transistors a dark art? Why can only some seem to get it right?
Why is there a small shop somewhere in Tokyo with a sign that says "New Japan Radio Co." that has been stamping out the same op amp for 30 years, and it still happens to be one of the best in the world? Also Sanken? Same boat.
The business of semiconductors is a constant chess game of outsourcing and acquisitions as everyone has illustrated. There are undoubtedly factories producing components for multiple companies like a foundry - and probably owned by On Semi, Rochester, etc.... And yet the best audio components still become unobtainium. That brings us to the next part:
You are absolutely right. But if they're built in a foundry-type arrangement, then small production runs should still be easy. Lego is, after all, still producing every block ever made. I think it's because some semi-con-samurais spent years of their lives crafting the perfect p-junction that On Semi still can't quite understand.
Disclaimer: All parabole and conjecture. Take from it what you will.
I used to make the bodies for alarm clocks, the movement gears were partly Indian and partly from Hong Kong, the factory closed in about 2004
They used to source the crystals from Citizen, 2 ppm instead of the regular 6 ppm, and spray the insides with silicon spray, the cell life was 30 months instead of 12 months. Accuracy of keeping time was better, as expected.
The Japanese methods of doing things are part of their culture of doing things in a group, achieving the most consistent quality with the best energy efficiency.
There are many examples, but as you know, Sanken, NEC, and others are prized.
The behemoths like Matsushita, Toshiba and Mitsubishi are not famous in the DIY business, but if you see their quality and volumes, they are well, respectable..
The JRC 5532 is still getting a 50% premium here compared to its competitors.
Sanken is gone I think, it was taken over by Sanyo, then that itself went to ON...gets dizzying!
They used to source the crystals from Citizen, 2 ppm instead of the regular 6 ppm, and spray the insides with silicon spray, the cell life was 30 months instead of 12 months. Accuracy of keeping time was better, as expected.
The Japanese methods of doing things are part of their culture of doing things in a group, achieving the most consistent quality with the best energy efficiency.
There are many examples, but as you know, Sanken, NEC, and others are prized.
The behemoths like Matsushita, Toshiba and Mitsubishi are not famous in the DIY business, but if you see their quality and volumes, they are well, respectable..
The JRC 5532 is still getting a 50% premium here compared to its competitors.
Sanken is gone I think, it was taken over by Sanyo, then that itself went to ON...gets dizzying!
I looked, they even make 071-072-074, in their own style...
They do have a detailed introduction for the foundry service, now I am waiting to see if someone has the courage to buy their minimum quantity of custom made transistors.
They do have a detailed introduction for the foundry service, now I am waiting to see if someone has the courage to buy their minimum quantity of custom made transistors.
fascinating history, but begs the question, what would that transistor be- the one that every audio DIYer really wished had not been discontinued?