The Beatles song “When I’m 64” was originally written by Paul McCartney in 1956, the year I was born. I turned 64 this year, so did my partner who learned to play the song for her birthday.
The song opens with: “When I get older, losing my hair”.
Having heard the line many times since it’s 1967 release, never thought about how it also applies to our hearing until recently.
Age-related hearing loss (presbycusis) and noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) literally result from the loss of inner ear hair cells.
High frequencies (HF) usually are the first to go, though NIHL also may cause a dip in hearing in the 4kHz (4000 cycles per second) range, where we are (were..) most sensitive to hearing.
By the age of 64 the average person has lost near 40dB at 4kHz, 50 dB at 8kHz, and hearing is more or less “gone” above 10kHz. Younger people can use 10kHz “mosquito” ringtones that most of us over 60 won’t hear.
My 64 year old partner has almost no presbycusis, she hears better than most people less than half her age. On the other side of the hearing loss coin toss, mine is more like someone almost 20 years older.
So what can the DIY person do about presbycusis?
1) Delay and reduce the problem before it happens, WEAR HEARING PROTECTION!
Although eye protection and dust masks were provided in school shop classes, hearing protection was not, even in firearm training. I had built several complete PA systems and toured the USA with them providing concert sound in theaters and arenas before first regularly wearing hearing protection around power tools in 1979. By then, NIHL had already begun, but testing my father’s hearing along side mine in 1998 was scary, realizing that on top of the 4kHz NIHL I could look forward to presbycusis.
Unfortunately for many of us, we used hearing protection too little, too late, which requires another solution:
2) Aquire good hearing aids fitted by a good audiologist.
I found an audiologist that sold, and was experienced fitting the various hearing aid manufacturer’s models I had under consideration. Although you might not think of hearing aids as “DIY Audio” they most certainly are- no other audio investment will be more “yourself” orientated than personal amplification.
I did more research into hearing aids prior to purchase than for any other devices bought as a professional sound engineer during my entire adult life.
Arthur C. Clarke wrote: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is equivalent to magic.” Hearing aid technology has advanced enough that their capabilities do seem “magical” in comparison to what was available previously.
After purchase, I measured the Phonak Audeo P-90 latency at only 6.15ms with all features engaged. The P-90 is a behind the ear “receiver in canal” (RIC) design, the RIC in the ear canal does not obstruct normal hearing, the receiver is a tiny balanced armature driver. “Magically”, the latency does not cause any audible comb filter effects I would expect between my normal hearing and the amplified sound through the receiver. The latency allows enough time for the automatic programs to choose how much speech or music components are amplified by frequency and level, or if determined to be noise, their reduction or cancellation.
The two hearing aids are wirelessly interconnected, allowing for implementation of the algorithms that automatically and adaptively adjust response and microphone configuration to different hearing environments and noise, those responses set by preference during fitting.
After two months of hearing aid use, find they make hearing similar to 20 years ago, hearing details again that had slowly faded over the years. I can again understand lyrics without cranking up the level, hear brushes on drums, fret noises, and room reverb sounds that had gone missing.
Although the missing high frequency detail is back, not experiencing any “too loud” sensation when SPL increases above the 65-70 dB SPL (sound pressure level) “conversational level” I usually listen at, even dumping bottles into the recycling bin sounds no worse than it did before.
The sound with the aids is still far from perfect, but the improvement is dramatic enough that I wear them nearly all my waking hours.
Another deciding factor in wearing them is that along with NIHL and presbycusis, my tinnitus (“ringing” in the ears) had increased to a level where it masked (sounded louder) than the high frequency of music or speech at conversational levels. Although hearing aids can’t reduce tinnitus, with background music playing I now hear it, rather than the ringing.
My audiogram and fitting report for the P-90s are attached, along with an explanation of what an audiogram means in dB SPL (Sound Pressure Level) compared to dB HL (hearing loss).
On the audiogram, the lower line with the “m”-like symbols indicate the loudness discomfort level (LDL), the intensity of sound at which a patient reports sound to be uncomfortably loud. The LDL is measured to determine the patient's dynamic range of hearing, the range from the softest to the loudest sound they can tolerate without discomfort. The purpose of determining the patient's dynamic range is to ensure that the hearing aid amplification remains within the comfortable levels of the listener.
Hope the above helps anyone who has been thinking about their hearing!
Art
The song opens with: “When I get older, losing my hair”.
Having heard the line many times since it’s 1967 release, never thought about how it also applies to our hearing until recently.
Age-related hearing loss (presbycusis) and noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) literally result from the loss of inner ear hair cells.
High frequencies (HF) usually are the first to go, though NIHL also may cause a dip in hearing in the 4kHz (4000 cycles per second) range, where we are (were..) most sensitive to hearing.
By the age of 64 the average person has lost near 40dB at 4kHz, 50 dB at 8kHz, and hearing is more or less “gone” above 10kHz. Younger people can use 10kHz “mosquito” ringtones that most of us over 60 won’t hear.
My 64 year old partner has almost no presbycusis, she hears better than most people less than half her age. On the other side of the hearing loss coin toss, mine is more like someone almost 20 years older.
So what can the DIY person do about presbycusis?
1) Delay and reduce the problem before it happens, WEAR HEARING PROTECTION!
Although eye protection and dust masks were provided in school shop classes, hearing protection was not, even in firearm training. I had built several complete PA systems and toured the USA with them providing concert sound in theaters and arenas before first regularly wearing hearing protection around power tools in 1979. By then, NIHL had already begun, but testing my father’s hearing along side mine in 1998 was scary, realizing that on top of the 4kHz NIHL I could look forward to presbycusis.
Unfortunately for many of us, we used hearing protection too little, too late, which requires another solution:
2) Aquire good hearing aids fitted by a good audiologist.
I found an audiologist that sold, and was experienced fitting the various hearing aid manufacturer’s models I had under consideration. Although you might not think of hearing aids as “DIY Audio” they most certainly are- no other audio investment will be more “yourself” orientated than personal amplification.
I did more research into hearing aids prior to purchase than for any other devices bought as a professional sound engineer during my entire adult life.
Arthur C. Clarke wrote: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is equivalent to magic.” Hearing aid technology has advanced enough that their capabilities do seem “magical” in comparison to what was available previously.
After purchase, I measured the Phonak Audeo P-90 latency at only 6.15ms with all features engaged. The P-90 is a behind the ear “receiver in canal” (RIC) design, the RIC in the ear canal does not obstruct normal hearing, the receiver is a tiny balanced armature driver. “Magically”, the latency does not cause any audible comb filter effects I would expect between my normal hearing and the amplified sound through the receiver. The latency allows enough time for the automatic programs to choose how much speech or music components are amplified by frequency and level, or if determined to be noise, their reduction or cancellation.
The two hearing aids are wirelessly interconnected, allowing for implementation of the algorithms that automatically and adaptively adjust response and microphone configuration to different hearing environments and noise, those responses set by preference during fitting.
After two months of hearing aid use, find they make hearing similar to 20 years ago, hearing details again that had slowly faded over the years. I can again understand lyrics without cranking up the level, hear brushes on drums, fret noises, and room reverb sounds that had gone missing.
Although the missing high frequency detail is back, not experiencing any “too loud” sensation when SPL increases above the 65-70 dB SPL (sound pressure level) “conversational level” I usually listen at, even dumping bottles into the recycling bin sounds no worse than it did before.
The sound with the aids is still far from perfect, but the improvement is dramatic enough that I wear them nearly all my waking hours.
Another deciding factor in wearing them is that along with NIHL and presbycusis, my tinnitus (“ringing” in the ears) had increased to a level where it masked (sounded louder) than the high frequency of music or speech at conversational levels. Although hearing aids can’t reduce tinnitus, with background music playing I now hear it, rather than the ringing.
My audiogram and fitting report for the P-90s are attached, along with an explanation of what an audiogram means in dB SPL (Sound Pressure Level) compared to dB HL (hearing loss).
On the audiogram, the lower line with the “m”-like symbols indicate the loudness discomfort level (LDL), the intensity of sound at which a patient reports sound to be uncomfortably loud. The LDL is measured to determine the patient's dynamic range of hearing, the range from the softest to the loudest sound they can tolerate without discomfort. The purpose of determining the patient's dynamic range is to ensure that the hearing aid amplification remains within the comfortable levels of the listener.
Hope the above helps anyone who has been thinking about their hearing!
Art
Attachments
I am over 70 and suffering hearing loss, most noticeable in work meetings when I struggle with voices of soft spoken women mostly. I will take the plunge to buy hearing aids for work shortly. I am troubled by the use of hearing aids as an adjunct to music listening though. What is a hearing aid? - In simple terms a microphone to receive incoming sound and an amplifier and miniature speaker tuned to selectively enhance and reproduce those frequencies where hearing is deficient. I assume my high quality stereo amplifier and speakers can reproduce sound more faithfully than a tiny hearing aid speaker and amplifier fed by an equally tiny microphone. Is it not better to set aside hearing aids when listening to music and rely on an equalizer in the stereo system to boost the specific frequencies where hearing is deficient? Curious to know the opinions of others,
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I would think the DIY hearing aid would be a noise cancelling headphone with the noise cancelling circuit inverted. So basically a headphone speaker, an amplifier, an a set of electret microphones mounted on the headphones...
Unsure what gain you could get up to before feedback. Unsure how whatever EQ they used in the noise-cancelling part would effect response. The only thing I'd be confident in would be the electret mics and the headphone drivers.
I'd be more assured wearing an all analog system, than something that has to compete bells and whistle with other devices in the market, inevitably bringing BT and / or other digital signaling so close to the head.
Unsure what gain you could get up to before feedback. Unsure how whatever EQ they used in the noise-cancelling part would effect response. The only thing I'd be confident in would be the electret mics and the headphone drivers.
I'd be more assured wearing an all analog system, than something that has to compete bells and whistle with other devices in the market, inevitably bringing BT and / or other digital signaling so close to the head.
Yes, interesting information about age-related hearing loss. Looks like all audiologists, irrespective of country or region, are trained only to compensate for speech frequencies.
In my opinion, a nice way to expand the boundaries of hearing aids (using DIY) would be to extend their frequency range upto at least 15kHz, so that life (and music) become more enjoyable.
These are my reports from when I was 18. I had blown my left ear by then. The audiologist said to me that it was most likely a temporary issue (maybe because I was young) and that my hearing would return in due course but still asked me to go to a doctor for confirmation.
I'm now alright upto 16kHz (both ears), but as we all know, it's just a matter of time...
In my opinion, a nice way to expand the boundaries of hearing aids (using DIY) would be to extend their frequency range upto at least 15kHz, so that life (and music) become more enjoyable.
These are my reports from when I was 18. I had blown my left ear by then. The audiologist said to me that it was most likely a temporary issue (maybe because I was young) and that my hearing would return in due course but still asked me to go to a doctor for confirmation.
I'm now alright upto 16kHz (both ears), but as we all know, it's just a matter of time...
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@weltersys ....Thank you so much for your detailed post.
I have been dreading....and putting off... the 'hearing aid' solution for a year or two now.
Your post, and a local specialist I am confident in, will go far to prompt me to do something about my hearing loss.
P.S. love the '64 reference !
I have been dreading....and putting off... the 'hearing aid' solution for a year or two now.
Your post, and a local specialist I am confident in, will go far to prompt me to do something about my hearing loss.
P.S. love the '64 reference !
James,
It is possible a high quality stereo amplifier and speakers could reproduce sound more faithfully than a hearing aid. That said, current models of hearing aids such as the ones I selected have signal to noise ratios and distortion specifications that exceed most stereos in the high frequency range, but more importantly, they have dynamic non-linear equalization compression algorithms that are individually tailored to each ear.
Unfortunately, as high frequency loss progresses, so does the dynamic range available. Notice in my audiogram in post #1, the difference between the loudness discomfort level (LDL) and the minimum level of hearing reduces from around 80dB at low frequencies to only 20dB above 4kHz. Both ears are similar remaining dynamic range, yet have frequency differences of as much as 15 dB.
To fit within the small remaining dynamic range requires a different EQ and compression range that varies with input source and frequency.
Attempting to compensate for those left/right hearing differences in a stereo speaker system would not work- placement and imaging would be thrown off with dynamic range.
Even assuming each ear had the same response, and dynamic equalization was employed, the resulting boosted high frequency room reverberation signature would be changed. HF reflections and reverberation randomize the phases of the harmonics, when the reflections are too strong the modulations in each frequency band become noise-like, and although their pitch is still detectable, timbre and direction are not. The last thing one wants when dynamic range is reduced is an increase in noise.
Also, any adjustment made to the stereo to compensate for your ears is likely to make it sound worse to others, the aural equivalent to trying to wear eyeglasses that aren’t your prescription.
As I listen to music and speech from a variety of sources with different levels throughout the day, having the compensation already in my ears provides a seamless transition between them.
Art
I'm 70 & I still have to 14 khz. US Army taught me to wear hearing protection in 1969. They destroyed the 15-20 khz that summer with artillery, but I'm grateful for what I have left. WEAR YOUR HEARING PROTECTION. Real men don't, and they are mostly deafer than posts in my circle of friends. It's not the age, it is the total of minutes of excessive noise. Many women hear fine at this age.
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Thanks for your reply Art. You appear to have done serious research and chosen a competent audiologist. Do you mind sharing your choice for hearing aids?
So far as adjusting my stereo system to suit, that would be for selfish solitary listening, not something I would inflict on others; and then there is the prospect of using tailored equalization with quality headphones - taking the room out of the equation; although it wouldn't resolve L/R imbalances, unless each channel is separately equalized.
So far as adjusting my stereo system to suit, that would be for selfish solitary listening, not something I would inflict on others; and then there is the prospect of using tailored equalization with quality headphones - taking the room out of the equation; although it wouldn't resolve L/R imbalances, unless each channel is separately equalized.
But what to do if people lose part of the dialogue in the centre channel?
I am of the opinion that the compensation freq range must be extended to 12-15kHz so that the result is closer to regular hearing. Simply the ability to hear much higher (and enjoy music and conversations better) could improve the quality of life significantly.
I am of the opinion that the compensation freq range must be extended to 12-15kHz so that the result is closer to regular hearing. Simply the ability to hear much higher (and enjoy music and conversations better) could improve the quality of life significantly.
If you use hearing aids you'd want spatial audio + multichannel. It takes care of the imaging and reflections for you. Plus it also works for audiences who don't use hearing aids. You help the person with the hearing aids without harming anything for those without. And you'd probably want arrays at least on the surrounds.
I was able to hear to around 18kHz when I was 15 years old, and could just barely hear the 15625 Hz flyback transformer noise on a big CRT in 1997 with my ear on the screen.
I did some very high frequency (VFH) experiments in April of 2012:
What are benefits of adding HF driver 7khz up?
Post #179, loads of discussion later...
Even though for the most part the VHF frequencies from 16 to 20kHz were inaudible to me, after mixing them down, using headphones, tinnitus really increased noticeably the day after, similar to what it would be after exposure to loud power tools.
Tinnitus is generally a warning that damage is taking place, unfortunately, the pursuit of frequencies above around 10kHz will probably result in rapid deterioration of whatever hearing is left that high.
Even disregarding increasing VHF levels to potentially hearing-damage levels, the transducers and gain before feedback limitations of hearing aids limits their output to less than would be required to compensate for 100dB+ loss of VHF sensitivity typical of advanced presbycusis.
However, high-tech digital hearing aids are able to provide “frequency compression” or frequency transposition, an algorithm designed to cut or copy a portion of an unaidable high frequency range and paste it within a lower frequency region that is aidable, or within the normal hearing range.
Since I know that further high frequency loss will eventually make those frequencies unaidable for me, frequency transposition was a consideration in the choice of hearing aids, even though I’m not using it much presently.
Different manufacturers use different algorithms and approaches, which will of course “sound different”.
Phonak’s “Sound Recover Two” approach seemed to be the best “on paper” to me, hopefully when I need it I’ll find I made the best choice.
Art
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James09: the quality headphones route did not worked out for my mother, she is over 80 years old but still seeks a quality reproduction of classical music. Sennheiser mxw1 was a pretty good in-ear headphone, but it was quicky put aside after the Phonak Audeo V70 purchase 5 years ago, for the reasons that weltersys explained wery well on previous posts. A modern high quality hearing aid such as Audeo P90 or the older V70 is based on a completely different technology than the first generation analog hearing aids of the past. It does have low distortion transducers, and it is basically a Hi-Fi noise cancelling headphone on steroids with a large library of DSP effects to tailor the response to the auditive deficit. Connectivity options are pretty good too, and very useful: my mother does have a less severe loss compared to the weltersys audiogram, so she does not wear the hearing aid always. But she like to use it with streaming audio and movie services from the tablet (via bluetooth) and TV. The audeo Tv-Link and Compilot interfaces proved to be very reliable for this duty. We didn't needed the extension microphones, but it is nice to know they are available. The only downside is the price. 5 years ago, the complete Phonak Audeo package was about two times the price of the most popular hearing aid. On the plus side, we found out that audiologist that operate on this price bracket are ready to spend the required time to select the right hearing aid model and then fine tune it. The end result is a device that improves quality life instead of one that sits in a drawer.
James,
Shared in the OP, but to repeat, went with the Phonak Audeo P-90, using the "M" receiver. The receivers (speakers) would be chosen by the audiologist for your particular hearing loss.
Although I have not auditioned other units, Phonak has been around a long time, has a good reputation among audiologists, and has a lot of tech data available, which I find comforting
Art
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I had a play with sweepgen audio generator:
Audio Tools - from David Taylor, Edinburgh
Staggering loss of hearing for me. 8kHz in left ear, 10kHz in right at 66. I put my phone to my right ear.
I could hear 16kHz when 20.
It also becomes painful to be exposed to high volume in home and commercial cinemas. I sit at the back by preference. My great nephews wick it up to extraordinary levels when watching movies. I get tinnitus the next day after such exposure. And I can't hear conversation at noisy parties.
Twin drivers, here Logitech Z200, is a good way to get voice clarity without loudness:
How it works is the speakers deliver the same loudness to your ears, but only half the power to the room. So less of a muddle with reflections. It also is a more even dispersion. Falls off less with distance.
Audio Tools - from David Taylor, Edinburgh
Staggering loss of hearing for me. 8kHz in left ear, 10kHz in right at 66. I put my phone to my right ear.
I could hear 16kHz when 20.
It also becomes painful to be exposed to high volume in home and commercial cinemas. I sit at the back by preference. My great nephews wick it up to extraordinary levels when watching movies. I get tinnitus the next day after such exposure. And I can't hear conversation at noisy parties.
Twin drivers, here Logitech Z200, is a good way to get voice clarity without loudness:
How it works is the speakers deliver the same loudness to your ears, but only half the power to the room. So less of a muddle with reflections. It also is a more even dispersion. Falls off less with distance.
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