There is one thing in the live sound world i've never managed to get quite right and that's the top end. CD's seem like an endless world of options and possibilities, with limited modeling capabilities.
So with that, i'm currently building a set of slightly modified SMT 212's for testing. If they work the way I want, then i'll be adding a few more. I'm loading them with Lavoce WAF123.01 woofers, which have scary close parameters to the original SN-12mb's used in the cabinet. They will be bi-amped for mids and highs as well. Each mid/top cabinet will sit on a set of 90* coupled 40hz front loaded horns with 18lw2400 drivers. Modeled sensitivity of the flh's are about 112db @ 2.83vv. I have no way of testing the actual output but to the ears it sounds every bit as sensitive as modeled. If everything works and blends, then it will eventually be 4 of the 40hz horns on top of a single 21" tapped horn. and 2-4 of these cabinets will be on top of all of that.
Power levels will be 800w to each flh, 500w to each set of mids (for now). Once the addition of the tapped horns come loaded with 21ds115's, they will be 1.5kw each. The 40hz horns will be bandpassed 38hz to 120hz. Mids will be high passed at 120-140hz to i'm thinking maybe 1.2khz to 1.5khz. Once the addition of the tapped horn comes in then the TH will be 25hz to 80hz, flh's will be 60hz to 150hz, and mids will cross at 140hz.
Question is, what compression driver and horn would you recommend with this setup? I would like something that can play roughly 1.5khz and up, but also keep up with everything else. These will be used in small to medium local venues, and occasional outdoor events with 200-300 people.
I was highly considering the B&C DE250 coupled to the ME45 horn, but i have a feeling the rest of the rig is going to walk circles around it.
Some good suggestions would be excellent. And if you are already running the dual mids version of these cabs and can give feedback, that would be even better! Thanks in advance for all your help!
So with that, i'm currently building a set of slightly modified SMT 212's for testing. If they work the way I want, then i'll be adding a few more. I'm loading them with Lavoce WAF123.01 woofers, which have scary close parameters to the original SN-12mb's used in the cabinet. They will be bi-amped for mids and highs as well. Each mid/top cabinet will sit on a set of 90* coupled 40hz front loaded horns with 18lw2400 drivers. Modeled sensitivity of the flh's are about 112db @ 2.83vv. I have no way of testing the actual output but to the ears it sounds every bit as sensitive as modeled. If everything works and blends, then it will eventually be 4 of the 40hz horns on top of a single 21" tapped horn. and 2-4 of these cabinets will be on top of all of that.
Power levels will be 800w to each flh, 500w to each set of mids (for now). Once the addition of the tapped horns come loaded with 21ds115's, they will be 1.5kw each. The 40hz horns will be bandpassed 38hz to 120hz. Mids will be high passed at 120-140hz to i'm thinking maybe 1.2khz to 1.5khz. Once the addition of the tapped horn comes in then the TH will be 25hz to 80hz, flh's will be 60hz to 150hz, and mids will cross at 140hz.
Question is, what compression driver and horn would you recommend with this setup? I would like something that can play roughly 1.5khz and up, but also keep up with everything else. These will be used in small to medium local venues, and occasional outdoor events with 200-300 people.
I was highly considering the B&C DE250 coupled to the ME45 horn, but i have a feeling the rest of the rig is going to walk circles around it.
Some good suggestions would be excellent. And if you are already running the dual mids version of these cabs and can give feedback, that would be even better! Thanks in advance for all your help!
I built a pair of 2.5 way MTM cabinets with 2x Faital 12PR300 and a HF10AK on QSC clone Parts Express buyout horn (90x60 constant directivity) crossed at 1.3kHz, LR24. I'm very happy with it. Seems the HF10AK matches the horn's exit angle almost perfectly and sounds very sweet. I don't know if the horns are still available anywhere though.
I think you need to go with a large format CD(1.4-2" exit) to get not only the power handling needed but the sound quality you are after. The DE250 is a fine driver but it won't be happy with a low crossover point at PA sound levels. I bought a pair of EAW 1.4" CDs off ebay last year and the testing I have done so far indicates they sound better at a 1.2khz crossover than any 1" exit CD I have heard, but they don't do as well as the DE750's I have. And to be clear I'm talking about the drivers low frequency sound quality here, the bigger drivers do a better job with the midrange they carry.
I have been pondering along the same lines. Right now im eyeballing the de700tn. Its higher price range then what i want, but that 15khz peak is exactly what im after. Unless im doing specific shows, the majority of the media will be electronic music. Dnb, dub, house, etc.
Im also looking at beyma's offerings. The cd14nd looks nice. As well as eminence n314t and for budget purposes, the p audio bmd750ii.
I loved my Peavey 22XT 1.4" tweeters. Were crossed over @ 1200 hz in my SP2-XT 2 ways. So did the burglar, that carried them off. 75 W limit, whole speaker rated 300 W rms.
I got two used 22XT, with 5"x14" horns, off ebay for $140. Might happen again. Bands blow the woofer, not so much the tweeter & a coupla horns ships for $25.
Eminence makes a 1.4" horn driver? big secret, parts-express didn't have them; ebay is drowning in eminence 1" entrance plastic horns with a 4"x6" exit. I don't like the sound of 1" horn 2 way speakers, even @ 1 W I audition at.
I got two used 22XT, with 5"x14" horns, off ebay for $140. Might happen again. Bands blow the woofer, not so much the tweeter & a coupla horns ships for $25.
Eminence makes a 1.4" horn driver? big secret, parts-express didn't have them; ebay is drowning in eminence 1" entrance plastic horns with a 4"x6" exit. I don't like the sound of 1" horn 2 way speakers, even @ 1 W I audition at.
And ive heard a few good things about them as well. Response looks decent. PE has them on their site for about $215ea.
I like the response graphs from some of the radians, but i cant justify the cost. Im trying to stay around 200 a driver if i can.
I also found a set of de780tn's on line for 170ea. These are the reproductions of the classic array monsters, the de900's.
I'm not sure the LF section makes sense (1x 21" playing lower than 4x 18"..?), but for the HF range I'd be looking at large-format drivers for sure. 18Sound do some good stuff, as do Faital Pro.
I'm using 18Sound ND1460 on RCF HF94 horns. Excellent sound, and very loud if you want them to be.
Chris
I'm using 18Sound ND1460 on RCF HF94 horns. Excellent sound, and very loud if you want them to be.
Chris
The TH will only compensate for what the FLH's cant get. Un-coupled or in half space, they roll off drastically about 55hz. With the 21" TH, I can set the high pass up farther and use them primarily as kicks, but also covering some sub duties. The TH would then take over all sub duties below 60hz. Im shooting to build Ricci's Othorn or the Paraflex golden c2-e 1x21. I may only end up using 2 of the FLH's on top of the tapped horn. I know, 15's or 12's are usually reserved for that spot but i have them already and it doesnt cost me anything to convert them to kicks. Alot of the media we play is very bass heavy drum and bass and dubstep. These have lots of spots that can dig as deep as 25hz at times. If i strictly used the FLH's, anything at 40hz would be down 3db. At 34hz and im already down 8db from peak at 52hz. And the TH is extremely bandwidth limited and really ends about 60-80hz.
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Yeah, I get that. My point is more that in terms of SPL, you need large amounts of cone displacement (area x Xmax) to produce lower and lower frequencies.
It's 4x displacement for every octave down you want to go.
Chris
It's 4x displacement for every octave down you want to go.
Chris
Understood. But unfortunately i have to work with what i have now on a limited budget. I have 4 of the 18" horns and the mains i had were junk. Im just starting by building a new set of mains. Ill most likely run the 4 horns for now and decide later what to do. Over time with a trickle of funds, i can virtually setup anything. But this gets me going again for summer. 80% of my shows are at local venues with maybe 200 people max. Some outdoor events can get a little more of a crowd but im very limited out doors with my current setup.
And after having a chat with someone from b&c, i decided to go with the b&c de780tn for drivers and the me90 for a horn unless someone can recommend a different horn. With this design, the mids have virtually zero vertical dispersion and 22.5° horizontal. Im thinking the me90's 80x60 pattern will work well.
hello,
i played around with a few compression drivers and horns. of all the drivers i tried, i think overall i would recommend the BMS 4552ND-8 most (if you dont mind a 113db sensitivity). the eminence drivers i tried were poor. 18sound nd1460 was also very nice, but the clarity from the bms was unrivaled. the bms4549 i tried were also not bad. when i tried different horns i was often disappointed, many sounded astonishingly bad. the frequency response was always ok, but the sound coloration was immense. the 2 most important factors seemed to be size and material. i prefer wood over alu and plastic... imagine your horn being an instrument, not a tool. do you want a violin, a trumpet or a ...(i dont even know a plastic instrument) to play your topend? i suggest you listen to at least 2 different options. for size it just felt like the bigger the hornmouth, the better it sounded.
cheers
i played around with a few compression drivers and horns. of all the drivers i tried, i think overall i would recommend the BMS 4552ND-8 most (if you dont mind a 113db sensitivity). the eminence drivers i tried were poor. 18sound nd1460 was also very nice, but the clarity from the bms was unrivaled. the bms4549 i tried were also not bad. when i tried different horns i was often disappointed, many sounded astonishingly bad. the frequency response was always ok, but the sound coloration was immense. the 2 most important factors seemed to be size and material. i prefer wood over alu and plastic... imagine your horn being an instrument, not a tool. do you want a violin, a trumpet or a ...(i dont even know a plastic instrument) to play your topend? i suggest you listen to at least 2 different options. for size it just felt like the bigger the hornmouth, the better it sounded.
cheers
