I'm looking to build a pair of nice small unobtrusive floorstanders for our conservatory/garden room (acoustic abomination of a long thin space with a stone floor and walls and ceiling that are mostly glass). So acoustically treating the surfaces is pretty well a none starter, as the main purpose is to see out of them. So I was thinking some kind of baby MTM/D'Appolito design to try and reduce the reflections from the hard floor (I may be able to get a rug down there) and ceiling that slopes across the listening space. They will be placed near the side walls about 2/5 way down the length of the space, the room is barely 2m wide and 4.25m long. The space is a thoroughfare to the garden so these have to tuck to the sides and be discrete otherwise a hooning child will send one flying on their way our of the door.
Ideally I was looking at something Totem Arro like, but then though a bit taller and MTM might benefit the space acoustically. I have some Fountek Neo CD3.0 tweets which never really did what I wanted in a previous build, I think trying to cross them at 2.sometihing khz was asking a bit much. This has lead to ideas of pairing the Founteks with something like a pair of ScanSpeak 12w discovery drivers or the Seas CA12RCY as an MTM in a tall slim cabinet. Would i do as well with the 4.5" drivers as a simple long thin 2 way? I'm hoping the smaller cone should allow me to cross higher and get the best out of the Fountek.
Any thought on this or other suggestions?
Thanks
Ideally I was looking at something Totem Arro like, but then though a bit taller and MTM might benefit the space acoustically. I have some Fountek Neo CD3.0 tweets which never really did what I wanted in a previous build, I think trying to cross them at 2.sometihing khz was asking a bit much. This has lead to ideas of pairing the Founteks with something like a pair of ScanSpeak 12w discovery drivers or the Seas CA12RCY as an MTM in a tall slim cabinet. Would i do as well with the 4.5" drivers as a simple long thin 2 way? I'm hoping the smaller cone should allow me to cross higher and get the best out of the Fountek.
Any thought on this or other suggestions?
Thanks
I'd locate the speakers along one of the short walls, in each corner, angled slightly inwards..
It will help increase the apparent bass response to balance out the hard room acoustics.
It will help increase the apparent bass response to balance out the hard room acoustics.
No speaker - shake the glass panes with an exciter - or multiples along the way. Maybe sound OK unless you want to go really loud?
Ideal loudspeaker for such space is a long, floor to ceiling, line array (column) loudspeaker, wall mounted. Maximum vertical directivity!
Horns? If big enough you get directivity to a low frequency, this reduces a lot of the issues with early reflections. I get amazing results with a battered old pair of Yorkville Unity U15 (60 degree conical) even in a living room with tile floors and stucco walls/ceiling. Small and unobtrusive and horns tend to be mutually exclusive, though.
On the other hand, if you goal is to achieve an "acoustically horrible space," buy a pair of old Bose 901s and it will turn the finest room into just that 🙂
On the other hand, if you goal is to achieve an "acoustically horrible space," buy a pair of old Bose 901s and it will turn the finest room into just that 🙂
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Mono and two single large speakers mounted back to back centrally and firing down the long axis. No point in having something excellent in a bad space. 12" full ranger.
If there are reflections then the more power you output the more reflections you will get.
It used to be a nightmare when I was DJing in big halls with plastered walls and wooden floors.
I guess best option is as said above and put speakers in centre of room back to back as that will half the reflection time each way.
It used to be a nightmare when I was DJing in big halls with plastered walls and wooden floors.
I guess best option is as said above and put speakers in centre of room back to back as that will half the reflection time each way.
Glass boundaries actually aren't that horrible from an acoustic point of view. They act as broadband absorbers (low to mid frequencies) but do reflect mid to high frequency sound quite effective. So while you will have less trouble with standing waves (modal behavior), the (early) reflections will cause trouble if you want pinpoint stereo imaging.
I'd advice speakers with quite high directivity, cardioid or dipole designs, aligned with some acoustic measures (curtains/mid-to high frequency absorbers/diffusers). Or, if it's more about casual listening and 'live experience' prevails 'stereo imaging', some speakers that are reasonably good monopoles (low directivity broadband).
I'd advice speakers with quite high directivity, cardioid or dipole designs, aligned with some acoustic measures (curtains/mid-to high frequency absorbers/diffusers). Or, if it's more about casual listening and 'live experience' prevails 'stereo imaging', some speakers that are reasonably good monopoles (low directivity broadband).
Ideally, the Founteks should be crossed somewhere around 4kHz. That's not going to work for the Scan 12W's but could work with the Seas 12CA's. Center to center spacing would be a compromise though.
For better C-to-C spacing, you'd need to go with smaller drivers, perhaps something like the little Vifa TG9 series which offer outstanding value.
For any of those small mid/woofers, LF's will be a challenge so a sub will be required if you want to get down below 50Hz, 60Hz, 70Hz or whatever the case might be. Or even perhaps a 3-way. With the Vifa's, if you wanted higher SPL's, you might also want to consider a 2.5 way, so an MTMMM.
Given that environment, you might also consider experimenting with the level of the tweeter output and/or giving it more of a downward slope than usual.
For better C-to-C spacing, you'd need to go with smaller drivers, perhaps something like the little Vifa TG9 series which offer outstanding value.
For any of those small mid/woofers, LF's will be a challenge so a sub will be required if you want to get down below 50Hz, 60Hz, 70Hz or whatever the case might be. Or even perhaps a 3-way. With the Vifa's, if you wanted higher SPL's, you might also want to consider a 2.5 way, so an MTMMM.
Given that environment, you might also consider experimenting with the level of the tweeter output and/or giving it more of a downward slope than usual.
So, badly drawn pic for clarification. Seating at the bottom, the top is a bit if a sink laundry area (this is no dedicated listening room), and the speakers half way down are very much dictated by the doors.the right hand door to the garden opened first, so the left hand one rarely gets opened and a speaker will probably sit near the front of it. The space is used as a bit of a home office work area and keeping an eye on the kids in the garden while having a beer kind of space.
The space is 'casual listening' not crazy loud, maybe a good background level. I want it to sound nice over super accurate, I'm not looking for crazy bass levels in there, probably not that loud at all really.
I could run a/some small subs, I've even considered a boenick style side firing bass driver in the cabinet and do a mid/ribbon I the front face, then maybe 8" driver firing into the room from say 150hz down. I have a minidsp and could drive that as a sub.
For MTM I was thinking to cut the fountek faceplate to get the centres to a minimum.
The space is 'casual listening' not crazy loud, maybe a good background level. I want it to sound nice over super accurate, I'm not looking for crazy bass levels in there, probably not that loud at all really.
I could run a/some small subs, I've even considered a boenick style side firing bass driver in the cabinet and do a mid/ribbon I the front face, then maybe 8" driver firing into the room from say 150hz down. I have a minidsp and could drive that as a sub.
For MTM I was thinking to cut the fountek faceplate to get the centres to a minimum.
MTM will not help much, it only adds directivity near the top end of the woofer's frequency range.
From your post #1, your desired sound level/quality, and your diagram, I'd say you're way over-thinking this. Also, for such a small (and narrow) space which is very "live", your sound (acoustic power) output needs are quite minimal. A good 8" 2-way (off-the-shelf at many music stores such as Guitar Center or wherever your local musicians go) is quite sufficient. Mount them at the ceiling, beyond the doorway (closer to the washer/dryer end). Add a sub somewhere if desired for more low bass, and call it a day.
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If you're going the call it a day route, you could try a set of vintage JBL, "HLS" series; I like my 610s - with the e-cap replaced of course. The HLS "center" is actually a MTM turned sideways. Pleasant speaker to listen to at low medium volume levels - decent measured FR too.
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Great idea to raise the speakers up off the floor and out of the way of the laundry going in and out. That's probably easier with just a single mid/woofer instead of an MTM.
A single Seas CA12 could work. It'll do an F3 of ~ 75Hz in about 3L vented. Some other small drivers that look like they'll work with that ribbon tweeter are the SB12PFC25-4 which will hit F3 of ~ 55Hz in 5L vented or the SB12PAC25-4 which needs about 3L for an F3 of ~65Hz. Also the TB W4-1720 which will work in about 7L and hit an F3 of ~ 49Hz, very similar in fact to Paul Carmody's Speedsters. One of the smaller Vifa TG9FD-10-04 will hit an F3 of ~ 55Hz in 7L but it won't play as loud as the others. Two might be better there but then you're back to a larger box again.
A single Seas CA12 could work. It'll do an F3 of ~ 75Hz in about 3L vented. Some other small drivers that look like they'll work with that ribbon tweeter are the SB12PFC25-4 which will hit F3 of ~ 55Hz in 5L vented or the SB12PAC25-4 which needs about 3L for an F3 of ~65Hz. Also the TB W4-1720 which will work in about 7L and hit an F3 of ~ 49Hz, very similar in fact to Paul Carmody's Speedsters. One of the smaller Vifa TG9FD-10-04 will hit an F3 of ~ 55Hz in 7L but it won't play as loud as the others. Two might be better there but then you're back to a larger box again.
I think I'd use some 3-4" PVC pipe, mount an up-firing 3" driver in there, add a conical deflector, and mount it to the wall. Two for stereo. Add a subwoofer and you'll have something half-decent for what it is.
You could probably do something with the deflector to make it more friendly for wall-mounting, too.
Chris
You could probably do something with the deflector to make it more friendly for wall-mounting, too.
Chris
So my original thought, was something like a pair of the CA12RCY in 13l tuned to 50hz. This would give me a gentle roll off to about 70z then drop off. Or even copy the Arro with about 10l for a single driver, tuned to 55-60hz (or lower if room gain is enough). The arro being 13×18×85cm is probably acting as a MLQW rather than just a ported box.
I'd like the speakers closer than the far end of the room I think, I'm not a fan of being miles away. I will chuck some other little boxes in and play with room positioning, see if it's as big an issue as I think.
I'd like the speakers closer than the far end of the room I think, I'm not a fan of being miles away. I will chuck some other little boxes in and play with room positioning, see if it's as big an issue as I think.