Of course, the diagram / construction is engineering work. Which determines stability and precision.
Deviation from the perfect will give its own sound.
What I am claiming is that what the construction is realized with is also a construction in the main constructions.
.
With data that deviate from the ideal / perfect.
The components RLC's imperfection and materials will also result in sound signature is my claim.
But how?, errors in passive components are small and negligible at audio levels and frequencies.
If the construction is sensibly constructed.
And material sound is not known concept in electronics.
The active components are the main supplier of faults,
This is typically reduced with global and local feedback.
Based on these ideas that materials for the construction did not matter, it was the diagram / construction that was decisive.
A resistor was a resistor if it met my requirements specifications, a cable was a cable ....
This is how I made hi-fi for many years , one construction after another, it sounded fine, but constantly missing True credibility in the sound.
I met Steen Duelund and also worked for a short time at Holfi.
Both combined engineering work with component / material sound signature.
It was new to me, but I gave it a try, It went the right way with my hi-fi the credibility I had missed came in sound and perspective.
I had made a better interface to the listener without affecting the good measuring results, both sound and precision were in place.
But I do not know how , no theory, no formulas, no measurements for a large part of the process, only listening experience.
That's why I created the thread in the hope of input.
Some people simply do not know how to open links and spout words looking for emotional response.
Allen Bradley 2W 47K, link in my #29 post.
And asking what circuit after a passive attenuation network was mentioned? Incredibly Amazing. Do you need a detail step by step tutorial on a resistor divider?
Not always. It depends on the amount of deviation.
You are free to claim whatever you want. Electrical signal variations of passive components are not always small and negligible at audio levels and frequencies. When the speaker cable is too thin for the length, it can cause enough resistance to make an audible difference.
I ask you the following question to see if we are both on same page. What is hi-fi?
Equivalent circuit diagrams are common in engineering. "just doing a quick simulation" only sometimes makes sense and part of becoming an engineer is to learn when and where a wire is just a wire and when and where you need to add a resistor and some capacitors from one wire to another and so on. When you have that down your simulations will make sense and the behaviour of the prototype will be very close to the simulation.
Apart from RLC parasitics there is impact of materials like DA in capacitors which is taken into account and various construction methods of passives. MELF resistors are different from wire wounds. Each have their place. None is better without context.
And there is research and data and formulas for all of that. Have a look at this for example, to have a glimpse at "only natural materials sound natural": (PDF) Dielectric Properties of Wood and Wood-Based Materials
Naturally. And that's where the ideas of sound signature spring up instead of checking for circuit behaviour and getting that in order instead of "being a chef".
It must be true that everything in a piece of equipment effects the sound; if all the components were perfect then no improvement could be made, and we would hear sound determined by driver configuration and positioning, this very much altered by the room.
To illustrate, as I have stated elsewhere, our speaker cables actually act like dipole loudspeakers when they carry current, the +ve and -ve pulsing towards and away from each other with the AC waveform, but is it significant, probably not at -400 dB or so.
So the question is to what degree each component is a limiting factor in sound quality. Cct design is a factor, and IMO many SS amplifiers are now very competent, and to the point of being transparent.
If we are now considering the structure of components and the materials they are made of, they may have measurable differences, attributable to each perhaps.
So if we choose for example, to verify something as simple as whether or not speaker cable design and material make a difference, we would need to set up a rig with the absolute best equipment, and do DBT tests to determine subjectively if they can be detected.
If they can, we are then flummoxed if no objective measurements can confirm any differences between them with the known science, but many may perhaps argue that the science is not sufficiently developed to reveal relevant differences.
This would cost a lot of investment in money and time, and I doubt that any Hi-Fi company of retailer would want to do it because the results may IMO destroy retail sales of expensive cables.
This is one small part in the human predicament.
To illustrate, as I have stated elsewhere, our speaker cables actually act like dipole loudspeakers when they carry current, the +ve and -ve pulsing towards and away from each other with the AC waveform, but is it significant, probably not at -400 dB or so.
So the question is to what degree each component is a limiting factor in sound quality. Cct design is a factor, and IMO many SS amplifiers are now very competent, and to the point of being transparent.
If we are now considering the structure of components and the materials they are made of, they may have measurable differences, attributable to each perhaps.
So if we choose for example, to verify something as simple as whether or not speaker cable design and material make a difference, we would need to set up a rig with the absolute best equipment, and do DBT tests to determine subjectively if they can be detected.
If they can, we are then flummoxed if no objective measurements can confirm any differences between them with the known science, but many may perhaps argue that the science is not sufficiently developed to reveal relevant differences.
This would cost a lot of investment in money and time, and I doubt that any Hi-Fi company of retailer would want to do it because the results may IMO destroy retail sales of expensive cables.
This is one small part in the human predicament.
"because the results may IMO destroy retail sales of expensive cables"
Probably not. Shakti stones are selling. Schnerzinger thingies are selling. Expensive cables are selling. No one who buys these things has an interest in research and no matter how much effort is made in research and measurement it will always be a case of "there is is no way to measure this" and "I can clearly hear a difference and if you can't your equipment isn't resolving enough and your own 'there can't be a difference' bias is clogging your mind.".
Probably not. Shakti stones are selling. Schnerzinger thingies are selling. Expensive cables are selling. No one who buys these things has an interest in research and no matter how much effort is made in research and measurement it will always be a case of "there is is no way to measure this" and "I can clearly hear a difference and if you can't your equipment isn't resolving enough and your own 'there can't be a difference' bias is clogging your mind.".
So Ob. vs Sub. wars will continue, and not just in audio, but with tea leaf readers, Tarot, crystal therapy, and many others, and the disbelievers.
When in broadcasting a fellow engineer stated that in South America, a long time ago, there was a war between to banana eating tribes, one preferred the green/yellow starchy state, and the other the yellow/brown sugary state; one tribe slaughtered the other.
When in broadcasting a fellow engineer stated that in South America, a long time ago, there was a war between to banana eating tribes, one preferred the green/yellow starchy state, and the other the yellow/brown sugary state; one tribe slaughtered the other.
Some people simply do not know how to open links and spout words looking for emotional response.
Allen Bradley 2W 47K, link in my #29 post.
And asking what circuit after a passive attenuation network was mentioned? Incredibly Amazing. Do you need a detail step by step tutorial on a resistor divider?
Wow, Sorry I must have missed the mention. Do you need a detailed step by step tutorial on how not to be an ahole?
And as I said you can always find extreme examples. Thats an antique CC resistor that no one would use these days. Whats your point? That passives have parasitics?
And a divider with 2 of those "bad" resistors would still give a flat response past 50khz
Last edited:
See what I mean by words invoking emotional response? Sorry to exaggerate the response, just trying to show a point.
Yes, some of the boutique audiophile stuff are the worst of them, but people simply trust the advertising bull without even the slightest thought of measuring the part, no need to look for a black sheep.
Yes, some of the boutique audiophile stuff are the worst of them, but people simply trust the advertising bull without even the slightest thought of measuring the part, no need to look for a black sheep.
Last edited:
Agreed. Audiophiles seem desperate to hear a difference. So many audiophile gear makers build one in "we tune it by ear". Like the 100k tube amp with a 10db boost at 60 Hz. The customer listens to 3 other amps than hears this one and goes " yea that one has great bass" Ill take it. Or the amp on the verge of stability " yea that one has shimmering highs" Ill take it.
Understand that sound differences have the following causes, poor construction, outdated bad components, there are no sound differences but a psychotic listener, bad boutique components.
As I said, it can be made much simpler.
Explain the sound differences between copper and silver. Silver,gold and tin plated copper. Mixture of gold and silver.
Is aware that psychotic or desperate audiophil here automatically takes effect.
But I can guarantee that is not the explanation.
Will not hide that I am a little disappointed with the development of the thread
Here at the largest Diy forums with the most knowledgeable forum participants as far as I can see.
What amazes me most is that no one has apparently observed the phenomenon by, for example, changing the decoupling or coupling capacitor, resistors, cable ,bleeder resistor.......
This resistor Vishay Precision Group - Foil Resistors - Home Page which is neither old boutique has its very own sound, as in terms of resolution and sound signature is far above a standard metal film resistor, it is not my favorite, the sound has a bit of a technical touch.
It also for me to ask there is no one who has observed perspective differences/variation which is a more clear objective measurement but unfortunately again only with ear and brain, my experience is that it is linked with the tonal qualities of the components and the precision of the construction in i.a. power supply.
Again sound changes that cannot be measured, perspective can be tied to the speakers or be completely free of them, the last is of course optimal, as lifelike sound also is.
Both are difficult sizes to define, measure and theoretically explain
Evenharmonics ask "I ask you the following question to see if we are both on same page. What is hi-fi?"
Sound and precision and perspective are credible compared to live ,if live is recorded.
The thing is, when hi-fi is really credible, everyone can hear it, and when hi-fi is bad, everyone can hear it.
The problem is when hi-fi is in the middle of these extremes, where most hi-fi is, then taste suddenly becomes a deciding factor
I do not mean taste and hi-fi belong together.
As I said, it can be made much simpler.
Explain the sound differences between copper and silver. Silver,gold and tin plated copper. Mixture of gold and silver.
Is aware that psychotic or desperate audiophil here automatically takes effect.
But I can guarantee that is not the explanation.
Will not hide that I am a little disappointed with the development of the thread
Here at the largest Diy forums with the most knowledgeable forum participants as far as I can see.
What amazes me most is that no one has apparently observed the phenomenon by, for example, changing the decoupling or coupling capacitor, resistors, cable ,bleeder resistor.......
This resistor Vishay Precision Group - Foil Resistors - Home Page which is neither old boutique has its very own sound, as in terms of resolution and sound signature is far above a standard metal film resistor, it is not my favorite, the sound has a bit of a technical touch.
It also for me to ask there is no one who has observed perspective differences/variation which is a more clear objective measurement but unfortunately again only with ear and brain, my experience is that it is linked with the tonal qualities of the components and the precision of the construction in i.a. power supply.
Again sound changes that cannot be measured, perspective can be tied to the speakers or be completely free of them, the last is of course optimal, as lifelike sound also is.
Both are difficult sizes to define, measure and theoretically explain
Evenharmonics ask "I ask you the following question to see if we are both on same page. What is hi-fi?"
Sound and precision and perspective are credible compared to live ,if live is recorded.
The thing is, when hi-fi is really credible, everyone can hear it, and when hi-fi is bad, everyone can hear it.
The problem is when hi-fi is in the middle of these extremes, where most hi-fi is, then taste suddenly becomes a deciding factor
I do not mean taste and hi-fi belong together.
Last edited:
I think it's more that no one can see the point in discussing it, not even analog sa, who has probably heard even more than you suggest.
Perhaps the blame goes to your misunderstanding of explanations given to you so far.
That's your claim, which you are free to make. The problem you are facing is the lack of supporting evidence. When I say evidence, I don't mean someone's opinion or anecdotal experience.
How do you compare recorded sound with live sound for the closeness? I know it takes listening but my question deals with the setup. Where and what would you use?
Of course not but if you are talking about recreating the "flavor" then of course hi-fi can be applied.
You think I have misunderstood what I am writing in my post: "Understand that sound differences have the following causes, poor construction, outdated bad components, there are no sound differences but a psychotic listener, bad boutique components."
I am also looking for evidence but no theory or measurements or formulas can describe a perspective 100% other than ear and brain
And no one can deny there can be a big difference in this between hi-fi systems.
Among other things, I have Participated in several recordings with two and three microphones placed at a distance and without subsequent manipulation.
It's amazing how close you can get to the original sound and just as amazing how far away you can get depending on the hi-fi system.
In addition, we humans are by nature equipped with a good ability to assess whether something is live or reproduced, we can hear it around a corner out of a window or a half-open door.
As I wrote when hi-fi is really good and true to nature, everyone agrees,
This is a question I have thought a lot about, do I only pass on the sound or do I create it as well.
No one knows what is on the recording, however, we can hear manipulation various additions of echo, etc., whether the recording was made with microphones close or at a distance.
Zero errors in the playback chain can not be achieved, the conclusion is that we probably both add sound and subtract. I claim that process can be directed towards a goal.
What I am looking for is live sound, the sound we can hear through an open door or window, in every concert venue regardless of acoustics, etc. That's the sound I'm looking for for, the sound of live music.
Can I get closer to live sound by using other materials and components and at the same time maintain the precision of the electronics circuits, then it's ok with me.
Some use gramophone and tubes for this purpose, some make constructions which have their own sound , It can be a way to get closer to live sound, but also something I would rather avoid.
I prefer the precision is as high as possible and use components and materials to create 'live sound'
It will not affect the measurement results, only the experienced sound signature , resolution and perspective.
The ring is closed.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.