This could be where better cone materials come into play as well as passive radiators. Perhaps a resonating diaphragm similar to a banjo head inside a band pass box could increase efficiency? Maybe a multiple push pull system using small drivers would work.
As to electromagnets: They can be more powerful that permanent magnets. If adequate electrical DC power is not an issue then electromagnetism would be a better option. Permanent magnets can get weaker over time. Permanent Magnets vs Electromagnets | Adams Magnetic Products
Today's speakers are 3% efficient. What are the limitations on speaker efficiency? Cone material? Probably. Magnet strengths? Definitely.
Is there a theoretical limit on how efficient a driver can be?
Will increasing the strength of the speaker magnet make it more efficient? Yes.
If you double the Gauss of the speaker how much will that increase the efficiency? Is there are formula to calculate.
It seems that over coming limitations are dependent on power of the amp and the strength of the magnet and durability cone and the coil.
We are at a point where amp wattage is less of an issue than it was. The weak link seems to be the drivers.
This may be a wrong analogy but look at ballistics and compare a speaker cone to a bullet. A .22 caliber short round is a poor choice for a weapon of war. It simply does not have enough energy due to its low weight and low velocity. Add more gun powder and its energy increases more than enough to make it a good weapon of war.
If a speaker can me made indestructible then would amp power be the only limiting factor when it comes to SPL? Let's say that an indesturctable 8" driver has a frequency response of 40hz to 20K hz and an efficiency of 90db but you put 20,000 watts into it. How many db will in produce?
Currently it would seem that the limitation to SPL is power and speaker durability and amp power. Amps are getting more lighter, more powerful and efficient in how they use electricity.
Enclosure design have probably reached its theoretical limit.
Why do divers intrinsically fail?
Design?
Quality control?
Materials?
Is there any theoretical limit regarding driver failure?
a bullet is a bad analogy because it does not have to return to it's original position and be ready for the next "round".
speaker could be indestructible...it's that pesky problem with physics again...modern car subs are very rugged devices but are notoriously inefficient it's the trade off between increasing the mass of the components that goes counter to efficiency.
20000 watts....will it produce unlimited SPL....possibly until heat starts to effect the resistance of the coil and power compression takes hold or the inevitable destruction of the coil.
heat and excursion limits are real world factors dictating driver failure.
speaker could be indestructible...it's that pesky problem with physics again...modern car subs are very rugged devices but are notoriously inefficient it's the trade off between increasing the mass of the components that goes counter to efficiency.
20000 watts....will it produce unlimited SPL....possibly until heat starts to effect the resistance of the coil and power compression takes hold or the inevitable destruction of the coil.
heat and excursion limits are real world factors dictating driver failure.
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The limitations of all the materials are well known as are the physics behind the technology. There isn't anything that hasn't been explored. The only changes available are the continued fine tuning of what is already known.
With today's tech, my dream PA would consist of Powersoft M-Force subs and some big Danley tops. Maybe an Alcons, Mundorf, or EAW line array.
If I'm moving everything myself, B&C Ipals with the proper amps and sensor. Beryllium 4" on a nice modern waveguide paired with a couple 18 Sound NTLW3500's in a hybrid horn/reflex design.
If I'm moving everything myself, B&C Ipals with the proper amps and sensor. Beryllium 4" on a nice modern waveguide paired with a couple 18 Sound NTLW3500's in a hybrid horn/reflex design.
I don't know if all existing materials have been explored. Most cones are paper and paper has been around for 1000's of years and there are many types of paper. The day may come when better materials cone materials are created. Maybe materials used for drum heads could out perform paper. Guild Hartke uses aluminium for cones. Spiders are made of cloth.
I don't think speaker manufacturers are advancing technology all that much but they are good at presenting old technology as something new. I don't think the industry has visionaries or bold thinkers such as Elon Musk or Bill Gates. Speakers are Tinker Toys compared to some of the things that are happening in the tech world. There has been little improvement over the decades. Speakers remain a magnet, a cone, a coil and a frame. People by them along with this industry hocus pocus. They are easy to manufacture so why should the industry change? If a visionary comes along and makes some serious innovations it will be a game changer. Speakers have changed very little over the years.
Musicians are suckers for industry hype. One of the latest scams are guitar cords and vacuum tubes Engineers have busted that one with null testing. Guitar player fall for a lot of gimmicks and tube sellers are exploiting them. For guitar and bass amps speakers are about the only thing that can make a difference in the sound that the end use can change. Guitar players are not going for accuracy, they are going for tone. A good PA system will take that tone and reproduce it accurately at the right volume.
A need drove that technology. The durable low efficiency speakers sparked the demand for high powered efficient amps.
Coils are copper. Is copper the best material? Could the bobbins have a cooling feature? Are the impurities in the copper? Are there better materials for coils? Can the bobbin act as a heat sink? Would carbon make a better conductor than copper for speaker coils?
wow dude...i thought i wasn't able to keep with the pace of advancement in the industry....
it was almost four possibly five decades ago that JBL started producing flat ribbon, edge wound aluminum voice coils for the three prime factors to lost efficiency, weight reduction, thermal transfer capability along with increasing the number of turns present in the gap not to mention with less heat expansion of the voice coil machine tolerances can be made tighter increasing the Bl of the driver.
and as to low efficiency speakers spawning the demand for higher power amps....i don't think so... i think it's more about achieving proper transient response.
it was almost four possibly five decades ago that JBL started producing flat ribbon, edge wound aluminum voice coils for the three prime factors to lost efficiency, weight reduction, thermal transfer capability along with increasing the number of turns present in the gap not to mention with less heat expansion of the voice coil machine tolerances can be made tighter increasing the Bl of the driver.
and as to low efficiency speakers spawning the demand for higher power amps....i don't think so... i think it's more about achieving proper transient response.
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This is something every manufacturer deserves a slap in the head for, confusing efficiency specs regarding subs.
Here's why: PAs subs are typically crossed somewhere around 100 HZ, and EQ'd to room and taste. Efficiency is typically rated wide-band. Big PA woofers are extremely efficient at midband frequencies. At 30 HZ, efficiency is more about power compression and cabinet design.
Your 101 dB rated efficient driver might be 90dB or less (likely much less) at 30 Hz in a typical vented cabinet. That's all PA drivers. Where modern high power drivers differ from something like your Peavey driver is they take a lot of power without compression and self destructing.
Pat
In order to get 101 dB/W/m out of a direct radiator you can’t have very much x-max. Basically, you need all the wire in the gap - the instant you move some of it out you lose efficiency. All of the good subwoofer drivers are only about 96 - and that’s midband efficiency. Seems to be about the sweet spot for modern PA subs. Pretty much stuck there without a superconducting cryomagnet.
In my real world experience the bigger the woofer the mushier the sound. I recall some companies using aluminum voice coil windings. Aluminum being less dense than copper it would dissipate heat better that aluminum but for some reason manufactures aren't using it. I found this article on a car audio forum. DD Audio write up on Copper vs Aluminum Voice Coils | Car Audio at CarAudio.com
One think it said is copper will work up to 300F to 400F and Aluminium 700F. The article talks about where the materials are sourced. Overall they say copper is more efficient.
It sounds like for subs woofers with long excursions aluminum is the best choice but why not create a material that has the heat dissipation of aluminum and the electrical conductivity of copper?
High temperature super conductivity is here. Perhaps graphene could be used.
Powerful magnets are probably the thing that will increase efficiency the most. Maybe there will be another leap past neodynium magnets.
Speaker innovation probably won't be coming from the speaker industry per se. It will come from scientific discovery and high tech industry innovation.
This site is saying that if a speaker is 100% efficient 1 watt could produce 180db. Maximum Theoretical Speaker Efficiency | Audiogon Discussion Forum
This is hard to believe because a Saturn rocket at take off is 200 db.
A speaker is a motor and I have seen experiments on Youtube using coils and magnets as blade less wind generators. Electric motors are extremely efficient. I was unable to find the theoretical efficiency of a loud speaker.
Many voice coils use copper clad aluminum and some are wound on the inside and outside of the voice coil former.
You clearly live in a Fantasy World.
Manufacturers and Engineers do not have much free time for daydreaming, being very busy actually designing and manufacturing stuff for real world use and sales.
You have so far thrown some 30 or 40 Fantasy ideas with not the least *solving* any of them.
Just *imagining* materials not in the Periodic Table, voice coils made out hollow wire with liquid Nitrogen running through it, onstage liquid Nitrogen generators feeding PA speakers, the works.
What if WHAT?
What if the Moon were made out of cheese?
What if War disappeared and World Hunger were solved?
What if a car could run 1000 miles with a teaspoonful of fuel?
Instead, what about working on a REAL goal, such as, say, rising speaker efficiency by 1 dB keeping everything else equal?
And the exhaust of the liquid nitrogen would create a fog effect on the stage.
Some years ago both Community and Stage Accompany used forced air cooling on their drivers. Community used a ducting system and a blower to move air through
the drivers in their Air Force series, Stage Accompany has small fans on their high frequency ribbon drivers.
Both of those were at least 25 years ago, never heard the Community system but I did hear the Stage Accompany boxes at a demo. The ribbon drivers did sound good
but I didn't feel they had the "punch" for a long throw PA system.
The Stage Accompany boxes were in production for a while but the Community Air Force never got much traction.
Both of those came out just about the same time line arrays were starting to get all the attention.
Your thinking and snarky ignorance is what created the Dark Ages. Had everyone listened to naysayers like you we'd still be living in the stone age.
Until you prove by using science why my suggestions are not feasible nobody's going to take you seriously.
Increasing a speaker 1db is simple. Use more powerful magnets. The manufacturers didn't create neodymium magnets. Progressive enlightened forward bold thinking educated people created them some time in 1982. Do you know why? Do you know what solutions they offered for problems and challenges?
Do you actually believe that current speaker technology is cutting edge? It isn't.
Do you actually believe the hype of manufacturers? I think you do.
Do you have any idea what the manufacturing cost of a speaker is? Do you?
Do you know why one 15" Eminence 15-A costs $80 and a Faital 15XL1400 costs $545? Do you? Do you think maybe it all total unethical BS aimed at suckers? Both speakers are rated at 97db
The Radian 5215 Neo is $750
About all the speaker manufacturers have one thing going for them, creative writing.
See for yourself. US SPEAKER - 15" Speakers - 15" bass speakers by Eminence Speaker, JBL, EV, RCF, Beyma, Peavey, Celestion, P.Audio, Ampeg, Crate, Jensen, Fane and Pyle. Find the right 15" woofers here. 15" bass speakers & 15" guitar speakers.
You really have no idea what you're talking about...😕 That eminence 15A is rated for 400W program. The Faital is rated to handle 7 times as much power. It's just a whole different class of driver.
The Faital is actually quite reasonably priced at 350€ street price for what it is.
The Faital is actually quite reasonably priced at 350€ street price for what it is.
You clearly don't understand driver T/S parameters. Tell us what their purpose is. How do they help not only a speaker manufacturer but also the driver manufacturer. Would you bother using them if you were to design/build a prototype driver? Do you figure you could do without them?
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well i'll be waiting with bated breath for the dream driver that HoundSound develops....
he's here to school us all....
he's here to school us all....
If people believed in nonsense such as you spread we would still have Shamans "curing" our ilnesses.
"What if" bat hair tea cures Cancer?
"What if" dust from a graveyard spread on a wound heals it?
"What if" ........ [fill with your favorite nonsense]
None of your "proposals" is useful, just a waste of bandwidth and server space, because you solved NOTHING, only throwing illogic open "questions".
They are not only useless, but BORING.
No clue simpleton ramblings.
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