Hello all and Happy New Year!
I am contemplating a new build, a subwoofer to complement my Frugel-Horn XLs. The Frugel-Horns don't necessarily NEED a sub to go with them, but I think they would benefit from one. I'm not looking for cheast-crunching pressures, just to give a bit more kick to the kick drums and some more groove to the bass lines. More than anything this is me wanting another project...
From an aesthetic point of view, a down-firing design would be quite suitable. It would also be the easiest considering there is a young puppy roaming around having a taste of everything with is very pointy teeth. In terms of acoustics? I have no idea.
I have Hypex DS1.2 amp on the shelf, which I'll happily use for this project. With the MiniDSP DDRC24 I expect I can pair the sub nicely with the Frugelhorns.
When it comes to choosing drivers or designs, I don't have much of an idea where to go to accomplish my goals. I'm hoping to find a ready, or easily modifiable design that I could use, somewhat like the Frugelhorns themselves were.
All input will be greatly appreciated!
I am contemplating a new build, a subwoofer to complement my Frugel-Horn XLs. The Frugel-Horns don't necessarily NEED a sub to go with them, but I think they would benefit from one. I'm not looking for cheast-crunching pressures, just to give a bit more kick to the kick drums and some more groove to the bass lines. More than anything this is me wanting another project...
From an aesthetic point of view, a down-firing design would be quite suitable. It would also be the easiest considering there is a young puppy roaming around having a taste of everything with is very pointy teeth. In terms of acoustics? I have no idea.
I have Hypex DS1.2 amp on the shelf, which I'll happily use for this project. With the MiniDSP DDRC24 I expect I can pair the sub nicely with the Frugelhorns.
When it comes to choosing drivers or designs, I don't have much of an idea where to go to accomplish my goals. I'm hoping to find a ready, or easily modifiable design that I could use, somewhat like the Frugelhorns themselves were.
All input will be greatly appreciated!
Frugel-Horn XXXL would be quite a sight, wouldn't it? 🙂
Your project looks intriguing! I wouldn't mind building another horn. I think I might struggle to get the permit from my fiancee to erect an obelisk in the living room, though. 😀 And my amp probably doesn't have the juice it needs either (120W @ 4Ohm).
But perhaps a smaller version?
Your project looks intriguing! I wouldn't mind building another horn. I think I might struggle to get the permit from my fiancee to erect an obelisk in the living room, though. 😀 And my amp probably doesn't have the juice it needs either (120W @ 4Ohm).
But perhaps a smaller version?
Scaling would definitely work.
You only need to find smaller driver with similar specs. For example a TangBand W6-1721.
Here is what happens as you put one in my case, but scaled to 75% the cross-section and length. Still pretty low end by a decent SPL.
You only need to find smaller driver with similar specs. For example a TangBand W6-1721.
Here is what happens as you put one in my case, but scaled to 75% the cross-section and length. Still pretty low end by a decent SPL.
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Such a box, if it used the same alignments, would be HUGE.
We have folded under pressure and Scott has done Joan, which initially was designated FH XXL. The alignment had to be changed s bit, not as much bass gain, to keep the size manageable.
dave
It was always my intention to do a helper woofer for the FHXL and FH-Lite that mimics the stealthWoofer we did for FH3.
It acts as a deflector for the FH and acts as helper woofers.
https://frugal-horn.com/downloads/stealthWoofer-0v8-200309.pdf
You can see them against the wall in this picture:
dave
It acts as a deflector for the FH and acts as helper woofers.
https://frugal-horn.com/downloads/stealthWoofer-0v8-200309.pdf
You can see them against the wall in this picture:
dave
Thanks for the input Dave, much appreciated!
The helper woofers seem to be more in line with what I was thinking when starting the thread, although I wasn't thinking plural. 🙂
Very interesting that you had something like that in mind when designing the FHXL! Are the ones that can be seen in the photo a closed box design?
The helper woofers seem to be more in line with what I was thinking when starting the thread, although I wasn't thinking plural. 🙂
Very interesting that you had something like that in mind when designing the FHXL! Are the ones that can be seen in the photo a closed box design?
Yes, the SDX7 allowed us to go sealed. Unfortunately NLA now, There are many woofers to explore, i expect an 8” would be where to look 1st.
dave
dave
I suppose we would have to define the real lows, and prioritize accordingly. However, the amp I have is pretty small, so that might go against a closed box design. Getting a new amp is not completely out of the question, but I would much rather use what I have, assuming I can get the quality that I'm looking for.
I like the bass I get from the FHXL, it is accurate and nuanced. I want to keep the quality aspect also going forward. A bit modest but tight always trumps powerful but sloppy for me. However, I still think that I'm missing a bit of the oomph in the lower registers.
I'm attaching my room measurement curve that I get when making room corrections with Dirac Live. I'll be the first to admit that I am not at all proficient in reading these curves, but what I see (in the bass department) is a pretty strong tapering from about 45 Hz and below. For example the lowest notes on the bass guitar are suffering from this, I believe. Going back to the beginning of the message, if this is the area that PCSoldaat means by real lows, then we are definitely talking about the same thing. 🙂
I like the bass I get from the FHXL, it is accurate and nuanced. I want to keep the quality aspect also going forward. A bit modest but tight always trumps powerful but sloppy for me. However, I still think that I'm missing a bit of the oomph in the lower registers.
I'm attaching my room measurement curve that I get when making room corrections with Dirac Live. I'll be the first to admit that I am not at all proficient in reading these curves, but what I see (in the bass department) is a pretty strong tapering from about 45 Hz and below. For example the lowest notes on the bass guitar are suffering from this, I believe. Going back to the beginning of the message, if this is the area that PCSoldaat means by real lows, then we are definitely talking about the same thing. 🙂
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You hit 30 Hz easily. I don't think you miss any bass guitar by range. Isn't the amp the only limiting factor? Or is it the displacement if the driver?
I'm driving the FHXL's with an Elekit TU-8200 tube amp. I can't really say whether it is limiting them or not. Or what amp where you referring to? When it comes to driver displacement we are venturing so far out of my realm of expertise that I'm not going to comment anything. 😀 Perhaps Dave or others with more knowledge of the FHXL can elaborate on that. The drivers are the Alpair 10.3's.
What amp?* With a sub(s) one assumes that you will bi-amp. Adding a passive XO is a huge can of worms.
In the graph pay no attention to F93), Toole has shown it is pretty much irrelevant (except for XOs). Look at F6/F10. You are getting response intot he high 20s, an XO of about an octave higher would be suggestted (ie 60 Hz) if you add a high pass (which will improve your mid top) and about 30 Hz if you are doing it REL-style with only a LP n the woofer.
dave
*(Elekit TU8200, not really suited to drive helper woofer(s), and will be no fan of a passive XO).
I meant the amp I mentioned in the opening post. This one: Hypex DS 1.2 – Impact Audio
Driving the sub / woofer with the Elekit was never my intention, sorry that I wasn't clear! 🙂
Given the XO in that the easiest route is REL-Style at 30-40 Hz, or add a PLLXO (a cap) in front of the Elekit for a HP, althou you would have to deal with the mix of 1st and 2nd order slopes.
dave
dave
I do have the MiniDSP DDRC224 to do all the XO work I need. It still has two free output channels, so in that sense I can easily accommodate two woofers if needed. The question is what size / design is the best for my needs?
So you have 2 XOs, the Hypex one on the pate amp, and the miniDSP.
What is best depends on your room, tastes, and desires. There are many ways to skin the cat.
dave
What is best depends on your room, tastes, and desires. There are many ways to skin the cat.
dave
Yes exactly, 2 XOs. They way I thought I'd do it is to set the XO on the plate amp to max, so 150 Hz, and the do the actual setting in the MiniDSP. Trying to tweak two crossovers will be an exercise in frustration I'm sure.
I hear what you are saying about different solutions for different needs. Finding some help to narrow it down was basically the reason for this thread. 🙂
The other day I stumbled upon the Hypex amp on the shelf, and thought: "Why not build a sub!" With little more thinking and surfing you start to uncover endless possibilities, be it small or big, bass reflex, horn, transmission line etc etc. I don't have the expertise to tell them apart one way or another. If I find a design I'm pretty confident I can fabricate it and make a decent job of it. So I hoped by asking I could hear what perhaps other FHXL owners have done, or get some guidance in general.
There is information about my use case here and there in the thread, but I'll summarize and elaborate:
- I'm looking for emphasis on the low end of the FHXL's. I don't want to explode the windows out, just to give a bit more authoritative feel. I could give the FHXL's a bass boost in the MiniDSP and that would help, but I believe with a sub I could get a better result.
- My stereo system resides in the living room. TV, movies, music all goes through them. First and foremost they are there for the music, though. My music taste are very variable, you can find jazz, classical, death metal and disco all happily coexisting in my record collection.
- My setup is currently so that the sources are fed to a preamp (mainly for source selection and volume control), from which the signal goes through the MiniDSP for Dirac room corrections and onwards to the Elekit TU-8200 tube amp, which basically acts as a power amp. I have still two output channels free on the MiniDSP, so up to two subs is possible if so decided.
- The room itself is medium sized, 5x6 meters. The speakers are along one of the long walls.
- I have a Hypex DS 1.2 plate amp which I can use for this project. I won't get too hung up on it if it doesn't suit the needs here, though.