This was a pretty good one (Also rare for JA) that I'm sure some have read but most have not.. Click at the bottom of the article to continue.
Harbeth M40.1 loudspeaker Manufacturer's Response | Stereophile.com
Harbeth M40.1 loudspeaker Manufacturer's Response | Stereophile.com
Man, I'd hate to have to sell speakers in today's environment. It looks like they are arguing over the low frequency performance in the modal region. But the manufacturer chose to design a speaker that operates in that region.
On the other hand, if I did sell speakers in today's environment I'd design them like Kii Threes so I could get good measurements from reviewers. In which case, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to sell speakers in today's environment.
On the other hand, if I did sell speakers in today's environment I'd design them like Kii Threes so I could get good measurements from reviewers. In which case, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to sell speakers in today's environment.
The absolutely insane thing is that the KII 3's and the Harbeth M40.1's with their own dedicated stands are the same price!! Harbeth definitely makes the most overpriced speakers(For what they are) on the planet.
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Remlab, @some 6000 to 7000+ Pounds Sterling (8500 $) a pair for an ancient 8"/1.5" concept, the Graham LS5/9 is a worthy contender of Harbeth.....For that kind of money you will get the unique experience of a very sharp edged enclosure, recess mounted woofer, and maybe, if you are very very lucky, a non flush mounted Audax 34 mm dome.
OK, with respect lads, while you may not like the big Harbeths (fair enough, they're not really my cup of tea either), a bit of common sense needs to be applied. $500? Come off it. The M40.2 is a commercial product, not a few bits of wood nailed together in an afternoon by a bloke in his shed with a couple of cheap drivers from the local electronics store.
Let's introduce a dose of reality (and note the precise nature of the design and whether it is to anybody's personal taste or not is neither here nor there).
Following the typical rule of 3 for a consumer item sold through retailers / dealers, the manufacturer only sees about 1/3 of the end price. Which using the cited $500 would be about $167 [just under], or £123.52 at the current exchange rate. For that you are proposing that a commercial company can build a large 3-way loudspeaker in the UK, with two large custom drive units and a modified Seas Excel tweeter, a rather extensive XO network, thin-wall BBC type cabinet construction, high-quality veneer and finishing. And that's just for starters, because in addition to doing that, that £123.52 also has to contribute to the company's commercial costs, which do not magically pay themselves. Some of the more significant of these being:
All in the UK. Which is not exactly the cheapest place to run a design and manufacturing business. And most particularly if you are not working to a high-volume sales model. Which designs of this type certainly are not.
Let's introduce a dose of reality (and note the precise nature of the design and whether it is to anybody's personal taste or not is neither here nor there).
Following the typical rule of 3 for a consumer item sold through retailers / dealers, the manufacturer only sees about 1/3 of the end price. Which using the cited $500 would be about $167 [just under], or £123.52 at the current exchange rate. For that you are proposing that a commercial company can build a large 3-way loudspeaker in the UK, with two large custom drive units and a modified Seas Excel tweeter, a rather extensive XO network, thin-wall BBC type cabinet construction, high-quality veneer and finishing. And that's just for starters, because in addition to doing that, that £123.52 also has to contribute to the company's commercial costs, which do not magically pay themselves. Some of the more significant of these being:
- Business rates
- A commercial manufacturing facility to maintain and staff
- A commercial office facility to maintain and staff
- A storage facility to maintain and run for materials / components and finished product
- Commercial shipping for finished product and components
- Insurance for all the above
- Commercial electricity, water [gas as appropriate] for the above
- Purchasing / maintaining a reference system for the business and visitors to use
- Staff and / or contractor wages and pensions
- Packaging to be designed and produced
- A business website to be produced, hosted, and run
- Advertising
- Reviews to arrange, with samples, and attendent shipping costs
- Social media (increasingly necessary) accounts to manage
- Shows, which frequently include double-time staff hours, along with transport, accommodation and food / drink for those staff
- A dealership network to create and support
- A profit for the business owner
All in the UK. Which is not exactly the cheapest place to run a design and manufacturing business. And most particularly if you are not working to a high-volume sales model. Which designs of this type certainly are not.
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Scott,
How the audio business works is no secret to me, including the costs & margins part. That being said, I never cease to be amazed the Cottage Industry keeps keeping on as if it is still 1977. Fundamentally flawed 9.000 $/€ products that are still being treated by underground subjectivist magazines as the best thing since sliced bread. Well, supply and demand, eh? Yes, but not without the help of the underground press, for whom it is unacceptable a e.g. $400 Neumann easily outperforms a $ 9000 197x design.
How the audio business works is no secret to me, including the costs & margins part. That being said, I never cease to be amazed the Cottage Industry keeps keeping on as if it is still 1977. Fundamentally flawed 9.000 $/€ products that are still being treated by underground subjectivist magazines as the best thing since sliced bread. Well, supply and demand, eh? Yes, but not without the help of the underground press, for whom it is unacceptable a e.g. $400 Neumann easily outperforms a $ 9000 197x design.
Then you understand the costings and why the retail price is what it is. 🙂
I don't think Harbeth loudspeakers are exactly an exclusive of 'underground' press; they're regulars in the mainstream also. Not that either count for a great deal though, as we both [all] know. 😉 Be that as it may, the fact is the performance is there inasmuch as they are excellent speakers of their type, with variations still used by the BBC as monitors, and if the retail market for said exists (and why not), who are we to tell people that they should have something different because we might happen to prefer it for xyz reasons, especially if those reasons don't actually apply to them.
I don't think Harbeth loudspeakers are exactly an exclusive of 'underground' press; they're regulars in the mainstream also. Not that either count for a great deal though, as we both [all] know. 😉 Be that as it may, the fact is the performance is there inasmuch as they are excellent speakers of their type, with variations still used by the BBC as monitors, and if the retail market for said exists (and why not), who are we to tell people that they should have something different because we might happen to prefer it for xyz reasons, especially if those reasons don't actually apply to them.
A question did anyone get to see the real Harbeth anechoic data, so that we could at least compare real and quasi and see how much in error our quasi anechoic measuring systems and the necessary approximations we have to apply to nearfield bass and port measurements etc.
Interestingly if there was a new Harbeth loudspeaker released today using non Harbeth Radial drivers and instead using our favourite high tech drivers that use current wisdom on materials, cone, motor, and suspension optimisation would we be happy with them and the necessary Harbeth pricing.
I don't think so, simply because we are from the DIY community and enjoy the challenge of making our own designs or clones and our labour and time is free.
If they did produce a new design It would also be interesting if they sounded much better than the current model or if they conformed to the Harbeth house sound and sounded similar to the original model.
Looking around the world any iconic product produced in its designers home country tends to be expensive, until you move it to a country with cheaper manufacturing. Noticeably lots of comments in the following readers responses seem to question made in SE Asia. i.e Kef LS50's readers responses spring to mind.
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Interestingly if there was a new Harbeth loudspeaker released today using non Harbeth Radial drivers and instead using our favourite high tech drivers that use current wisdom on materials, cone, motor, and suspension optimisation would we be happy with them and the necessary Harbeth pricing.
I don't think so, simply because we are from the DIY community and enjoy the challenge of making our own designs or clones and our labour and time is free.
If they did produce a new design It would also be interesting if they sounded much better than the current model or if they conformed to the Harbeth house sound and sounded similar to the original model.
Looking around the world any iconic product produced in its designers home country tends to be expensive, until you move it to a country with cheaper manufacturing. Noticeably lots of comments in the following readers responses seem to question made in SE Asia. i.e Kef LS50's readers responses spring to mind.
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Hello Raymondj,
Toole, Welti and Olive at Harman Int. have done tons of research into what is better design wise and what sounds better. One can read all about that in Sound Reproduction. Like it or not, Ye Olde BBC school of design does not qualify, although there is still a crowd of followers of all that, just as the Dynaco A25 still has it's followers.
The point being made in post 3 is that the Kii3 costs as much as the Harbeth M40-2, whereas there is no comparison in technology and performance..
Toole, Welti and Olive at Harman Int. have done tons of research into what is better design wise and what sounds better. One can read all about that in Sound Reproduction. Like it or not, Ye Olde BBC school of design does not qualify, although there is still a crowd of followers of all that, just as the Dynaco A25 still has it's followers.
The point being made in post 3 is that the Kii3 costs as much as the Harbeth M40-2, whereas there is no comparison in technology and performance..
Individuals can like like or hate anything they want🙂, but from a technological and scientific standpoint, it is way, way better than the Harbeth. It also has over 1000 watts of Hypex amplification built into each speaker, so no need for an external amplifier
Toole, Welti and Olive at Harman Int. have done tons of research into what is better design wise and what sounds better. As other have said we stand on the shoulders of giants.
All this goodness has hopefully rippled through into the Global giants wares who employ them or pay for their skills as consultants.Which i imagine gives them massive sales and returns.
But, interestingly some people still buy the the older designs not even considering the many pages devoted here to full ranges and myriad other design ideas. Also look to second hand prices for icons from the past.
For a DIYer here to replicate a Kii3 as a clone would need some considerable design skills, time and probably support from other members to pull it off. So I agree more modern design with a tougher challenge and therefore possibly far better value for money if you want to look at it that way.
I havent heard either design so I cannot comment on performance and which one I prefer.
All this goodness has hopefully rippled through into the Global giants wares who employ them or pay for their skills as consultants.Which i imagine gives them massive sales and returns.
But, interestingly some people still buy the the older designs not even considering the many pages devoted here to full ranges and myriad other design ideas. Also look to second hand prices for icons from the past.
For a DIYer here to replicate a Kii3 as a clone would need some considerable design skills, time and probably support from other members to pull it off. So I agree more modern design with a tougher challenge and therefore possibly far better value for money if you want to look at it that way.
I havent heard either design so I cannot comment on performance and which one I prefer.
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The KIIs use rather cheap steel-basket Peerless drivers. Which really just lends weight to the argument that in loudspeakers, system design beats individual "class" or whatever of components.
Did you ever listen to either model?
yeah, maybe, but is it way, way better than Genelec 8351, for example? from a technological and scientific standpoint?
it is way more expensive though
It may also be worth keeping in mind that the British Library's National Sound Archive use Harbeth monitors, and you will also find them in BBC control rooms etc. while the Kii Three is absent. Since neither organisation are exactly known for their incompetence and they are free to select what they deem most suitable to their requirements, it is perhaps safe to conclude that 'Ye Olde BBC School' does, in fact, qualify. Material monitored and mixed on such loudspeakers is broadcast into UK homes 24/7.
Please note I am not criticising the Kii Three (or any other form of Kii), nor am I promoting BBC type monitors for that matter. I don't use or listen to either; neither suit my requirements. What I am noting though is that in the eagerness to extoll xyz, it's often easy to become a little over-dismissive of alternatives. The world is not so black and white as all that. If it was, life might be a bit easier, albeit also less interesting. 😉
Please note I am not criticising the Kii Three (or any other form of Kii), nor am I promoting BBC type monitors for that matter. I don't use or listen to either; neither suit my requirements. What I am noting though is that in the eagerness to extoll xyz, it's often easy to become a little over-dismissive of alternatives. The world is not so black and white as all that. If it was, life might be a bit easier, albeit also less interesting. 😉
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The Harbeth is analogous to a tube amplifier with it's emphasis on sounding good(Art) at the expense of ultimate accuracy(Science), which is perfectly fine. Possible to clone(Within reason) by any good DIY enthusiast for under $500? I believe so.
The Kii3 is analogous to a Hypex amplifier with it's emphasis on perfect measurements(science) with little or no regard to art. Possible to clone by DIY enthusiasts for any price? Highly unlikely.
All this being said, personally, I would have no problem with the possibility of liking the sound of the Harbeth over the Kii, because ultimately, it's almost always subjective, unless you're a studio engineer.
The Kii3 is analogous to a Hypex amplifier with it's emphasis on perfect measurements(science) with little or no regard to art. Possible to clone by DIY enthusiasts for any price? Highly unlikely.
All this being said, personally, I would have no problem with the possibility of liking the sound of the Harbeth over the Kii, because ultimately, it's almost always subjective, unless you're a studio engineer.
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If I had $12,000 to spend, I would take the 8361's in a heartbeat over the Kii's, and pocket the other $2,000