Reading Stereophile and if made by Joachim Gherard, you will have hard time to do better than this speaker with oem modified mid and treble from Seas and the sota savoir faire of this guy !
You could try a bass cabinet with dsp if low end is missed as per Stereophile claims... put a better tweeter from the Excell serie if the spl and Fs is close enough ! Why not your SS 9900 if the size is close enough with some resistor spl adjustments !
Or simply do your speaker with your part as a learning project not in mind to do better than what you already have ! Or plan indeed something different to ret another league : open bafle speaker for instance, ribbon, plannar, etc !
The weakness if any of the Virgo seems to be the bass design (and I'm not sure of that, that just what Stereophile experienced).
Something like your drivers with a dsp for the bass will gaurantee more sucess and a better room integration as filter maybe .
You need to have tols to measure : it's cheap but ask to read.
In our hobby, mic and its amp and soft measurment is as mandatory as a saw if you plan to go to building furniture hobby - but copy something already made that was not developed for your room...which is -the room- half if not more of the final result, imho.
You could try a bass cabinet with dsp if low end is missed as per Stereophile claims... put a better tweeter from the Excell serie if the spl and Fs is close enough ! Why not your SS 9900 if the size is close enough with some resistor spl adjustments !
Or simply do your speaker with your part as a learning project not in mind to do better than what you already have ! Or plan indeed something different to ret another league : open bafle speaker for instance, ribbon, plannar, etc !
The weakness if any of the Virgo seems to be the bass design (and I'm not sure of that, that just what Stereophile experienced).
Something like your drivers with a dsp for the bass will gaurantee more sucess and a better room integration as filter maybe .
You need to have tols to measure : it's cheap but ask to read.
In our hobby, mic and its amp and soft measurment is as mandatory as a saw if you plan to go to building furniture hobby - but copy something already made that was not developed for your room...which is -the room- half if not more of the final result, imho.
Dammit Jim – really like your system... I have a really nice custom Michael Yee Audio PA-2 power amp that I’m captivated by. 100 W of detailed and sweet valve-like hi’s and mids, and firm well-controlled solid state lows.
Wow – thanks again everyone. I must admit the choices I’m now considering are becoming more numerous and I’m starting to suffer from analysis paralysis ;-)
Choice 0: sell all the existing drivers, be happy and content with the Virgo-Velodyne speaker system.
Choice 1: sell all the existing drivers, build Scott’s Ardent D. Most expensive, complex; unquestionable pedigree.
The remaining choices are for a mid-tweeter “module” separate from the woofer “module” which will use its own amp. They are not listed in any particular order other than what I have learned about.
Choice 2: keep the 9900 tweeter and 8545 mid woofer, crossover per the originally envisioned Scan Speak Reference Monitor and similar implementations.
Choice 3: keep the 9900 tweeter and use the 8535 mid-woofer, crossover per the Jensen 1071 or similar.
Choice 4: keep the 9900 tweeter and purchase the Meniscus Spirit Wind kit custom AT 18H52 driver and crossover.
Choice 5a: sell the 9900 and 8545, and use a Viawave SRT-7 tweeter and Purifi 6.5W04 mid-woofer with a yet to be designed passive crossover.
Choice 5b.1: sell the 9900 and 8545, and use a similar Viawave GRT-145 ribbon tweeter and the Ellipticor 8542 used with the ATELL-3 crossover. Would have to purchase ATEL-3 or have Troels provide crossover values. 5b.2 Consider the ATELL- 3 build with a 12 inch woofer and/or larger volume 1259 woofer cabinet (consider Hypex amp SB woofer implementation or re-purpose Velodyne servo-subs in a smaller sealed cabinet).
Choice 6: Purchase the Selah Audio Purezza kit which utilizes the BZ labs CQ76B ribbon/planar tweeter and Purifi 6.5W04 mid-woofer.
The woofer module would consist of:
1. The sealed 1259 or an SB woofer (or similar) implementation, powered by a hypex or similar DSP amp.
2. Repurpose the Velodyne servo subs into a new separate or integrated speaker enclosure.
3. Locate a used pair of Entec SW-1’s, refurbish, power up the PA-2 amplifier MT speakers, die and go to heaven after the first listen.
Wow – thanks again everyone. I must admit the choices I’m now considering are becoming more numerous and I’m starting to suffer from analysis paralysis ;-)
Choice 0: sell all the existing drivers, be happy and content with the Virgo-Velodyne speaker system.
Choice 1: sell all the existing drivers, build Scott’s Ardent D. Most expensive, complex; unquestionable pedigree.
The remaining choices are for a mid-tweeter “module” separate from the woofer “module” which will use its own amp. They are not listed in any particular order other than what I have learned about.
Choice 2: keep the 9900 tweeter and 8545 mid woofer, crossover per the originally envisioned Scan Speak Reference Monitor and similar implementations.
Choice 3: keep the 9900 tweeter and use the 8535 mid-woofer, crossover per the Jensen 1071 or similar.
Choice 4: keep the 9900 tweeter and purchase the Meniscus Spirit Wind kit custom AT 18H52 driver and crossover.
Choice 5a: sell the 9900 and 8545, and use a Viawave SRT-7 tweeter and Purifi 6.5W04 mid-woofer with a yet to be designed passive crossover.
Choice 5b.1: sell the 9900 and 8545, and use a similar Viawave GRT-145 ribbon tweeter and the Ellipticor 8542 used with the ATELL-3 crossover. Would have to purchase ATEL-3 or have Troels provide crossover values. 5b.2 Consider the ATELL- 3 build with a 12 inch woofer and/or larger volume 1259 woofer cabinet (consider Hypex amp SB woofer implementation or re-purpose Velodyne servo-subs in a smaller sealed cabinet).
Choice 6: Purchase the Selah Audio Purezza kit which utilizes the BZ labs CQ76B ribbon/planar tweeter and Purifi 6.5W04 mid-woofer.
The woofer module would consist of:
1. The sealed 1259 or an SB woofer (or similar) implementation, powered by a hypex or similar DSP amp.
2. Repurpose the Velodyne servo subs into a new separate or integrated speaker enclosure.
3. Locate a used pair of Entec SW-1’s, refurbish, power up the PA-2 amplifier MT speakers, die and go to heaven after the first listen.
Attachments
..not Scott's Ardent D. Jon's. 😉
I should also note that you can defray the expense by selling your Virgo's (once you've got the Ardent D's working) and the other drivers. You won't get a lot for it, but it shouldn't be to bad. (..absolutely keep the Velodyne's and use them, the more low freq. sources in the room the better the freq. response at those freq.s provided sub placement is "dialed-in".)
Note: you might even get Jon to do a slight modification (if any) of the crossover for your tweeters if you are interested in that (and a slight mod dimensional mod. for the face-plate). Evil Twin (Jon) has on occasion been known to concede small favors to loyal Imperial Citizens. 😀
BTW, as far as pedigree: you aren't wrong about that. He (and his business partner) sold Avalon Acoustics to Hansen (..who then sold it to current owner Patel).
-it's just 1 option, but it should be a real upgrade overall (..and maybe in total: as in "surpassing it in every respect").
BTW, your post here is interesting: very few people (that aren't already DIY'ers) have loudspeakers (and subs) that are as good as yours that come here looking for something better. Responders tend to give similar advice, without fully considering the objective in context.
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... btw, seing the photograph ! What happen if you move the loudspeaker twice farer from the wall. Find it way to close from the rear wall ! Try 1 meter from the front bafle... you could winn a btter bass and stereo soundstage and as you have a Velodyne DD (good device indeed), you don't need to be as close from the wall to winn some bass level (and boomy things)... just 2 cents !
Sold all, buy a Martin Logan or ESL Quads... lol ! I joke...but🙄 !
Sold all, buy a Martin Logan or ESL Quads... lol ! I joke...but🙄 !
Best midrange I've ever heard was from a Martin Logan Monolith III. (..I've had that "best midrange" tied later with a large format compression driver and an 845 out SET amp. Not the same, but both were outstanding.)
Those speakers were connected to all Krell equipment (circa same as Monolith III); dealer put on Money by Pink Floyd (Mobile Fidelity issue of Dark Side of the Moon) and it was (very) good but not great. Then the dealer put on their *in-house CD platter weight on top of the **CD and I swear that real coins were cascading down the panels on that song (all imaging became almost tangible with that weight on the CD). It was one of those early pivotal moments for me when I absolutely knew that better equipment was a "real thing".
*brand: Simple Physics (..better known for speaker and equipment coupling "cones" in the '90's.)
** the Krell disc player was open on top with a machined clear-acrylic lid. All of the Krell stuff was their top of the line at that time.
Those speakers were connected to all Krell equipment (circa same as Monolith III); dealer put on Money by Pink Floyd (Mobile Fidelity issue of Dark Side of the Moon) and it was (very) good but not great. Then the dealer put on their *in-house CD platter weight on top of the **CD and I swear that real coins were cascading down the panels on that song (all imaging became almost tangible with that weight on the CD). It was one of those early pivotal moments for me when I absolutely knew that better equipment was a "real thing".
*brand: Simple Physics (..better known for speaker and equipment coupling "cones" in the '90's.)
** the Krell disc player was open on top with a machined clear-acrylic lid. All of the Krell stuff was their top of the line at that time.
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I can not agree more... sources matter a lot imho. And dac sources made great progress enough that last 15 years that speakers became more and more particular ...I mean highlighting their good and bad...btw it is fun to rediscover old well made speakers with today very good sources...
Because of multiple horns almost impossibility to set up if two or more ...but laybe with a very high xo above 8k/10k and I am even not sure it is possible I focus today towards a 2 ways with a single horn...just waiting the good enough design horn cause it asks an awesome knowledge few have... and I definitly am, because the sources, more towards passive filters...believing good actives are very expensive.
If I have 10000 euros I will go towards a ML or a Quad...but here the streching aging of mylar seem to make them short life...at least in my concervative point of view...less than 10 to 15 years before the mylar diag becomes too much flappy ???
Your story with the cd player remember me that crazy time when we diy cd player putting Philips laser heads in 2k and more lead blocs for vibrations...was fun...I am a bit nostalgic of that times...Lampzator showed thecrazyness with his first web pages....
Sorry for the disgress.
.
Because of multiple horns almost impossibility to set up if two or more ...but laybe with a very high xo above 8k/10k and I am even not sure it is possible I focus today towards a 2 ways with a single horn...just waiting the good enough design horn cause it asks an awesome knowledge few have... and I definitly am, because the sources, more towards passive filters...believing good actives are very expensive.
If I have 10000 euros I will go towards a ML or a Quad...but here the streching aging of mylar seem to make them short life...at least in my concervative point of view...less than 10 to 15 years before the mylar diag becomes too much flappy ???
Your story with the cd player remember me that crazy time when we diy cd player putting Philips laser heads in 2k and more lead blocs for vibrations...was fun...I am a bit nostalgic of that times...Lampzator showed thecrazyness with his first web pages....
Sorry for the disgress.
.
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Diyiggy - my subs are not the Velodyne DD's, they're the earlier F-1200b servo versions, so possibly some room for improvement. And sometimes pictures can be deceiving: the front baffle of the Virgo's are at 0.9 meters from the rear walls. I anticipate another reorientation of my living room furniture soon to give them more "breathing" space in the near future.
Scott - I was referring to the Wavecore Ardent's as your suggestion, not that your were their designer ;-)
The conundrum I find myself in is that it is not possible to audition any of the systems being considered. So I don't know if I would in reality make a significant improvement over what I already have - which you and others have noted is already pretty not bad.
When I moved from the Apogee Duetta's to the AudioPhysic Virgo's it was based on hearing an unmistakable and significant improvement in the overall musical presentation - especially in their midrange and treble clarity. So I knowingly expended the additional funds for a definite tangible improvement.
Now I'm hoping for a similar improvement in a "final" speaker system, but it is contingent on believing a certain set of drivers and construction will achieve this improvement, without any actual first-hand experience. I also know from my other hobby - "hi end" astronomical equipment and solar observation - that small incremental improvements can have significant cumulative effects, and there usually is a logarithmic increase in costs to achieve these small improvements. Thus the law of diminishing returns. I purchased my current set of hi-quality drivers with the hope for improvement without a demonstrated example that a real-world improvement would actually occur.
I have since found the subjective reviews of others are not really helpful. I have compared other well-reviewed and more costly newer speakers with more recent drivers to the Virgo's, and they turned out to be disappointing. Thus my renewed interest in DIY.
So while the Wavecore Ardents seem to be a possible path to audio Nirvana based on the quality and expense of the drivers and the skills and experience of the designer(s), they remain unheard. However, this is not much different in some regards to the "lesser" speakers considered, and makes the substantial expenditure of funds and efforts to execute them even more risky...
So a question would be is there a known builder and owner of this speaker system anywhere in Oregon, Washington, or Northern California that would possibly let me audition them? Otherwise I'm relying on blind faith that my expenditures and efforts will be rewarded with a significant improvement. It's one thing to expend another $1000.00 USD for a hoped for improvement, and quite another to expend 5 times or more that amount.
Importantly, if I decide to move forward with the Ardent, it seems the the heart of the speaker - the Accuton C90-9-079 midrange driver - is now listed by Madisound as "To be discontinued. Limited parts available to build more. Any order will be confirmed with Accuton first, then special order placed. Delivery could be 2 to 6 weeks depending on their schedule." AND the list price is $487.00. On the other hand, Flacon Acoustics in Great Britain lists this driver for £287, or about or about $372...? I don't think it would cost $230 to ship these to the USA.
Lastly, the link provided to the Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread is 19 pages long (!), and refers to multiple crossover changes and corrections in addition to other drivers being used. Is there a condensed reference which would show the most recent preferred drivers and crossover layout? This would make a novice speaker builder like me a bit more comfortable rather than having to check and cross-check multiple references to the evolving changes that have been made.
Again, much thanks for everyone's time and consideration.
Scott - I was referring to the Wavecore Ardent's as your suggestion, not that your were their designer ;-)
The conundrum I find myself in is that it is not possible to audition any of the systems being considered. So I don't know if I would in reality make a significant improvement over what I already have - which you and others have noted is already pretty not bad.
When I moved from the Apogee Duetta's to the AudioPhysic Virgo's it was based on hearing an unmistakable and significant improvement in the overall musical presentation - especially in their midrange and treble clarity. So I knowingly expended the additional funds for a definite tangible improvement.
Now I'm hoping for a similar improvement in a "final" speaker system, but it is contingent on believing a certain set of drivers and construction will achieve this improvement, without any actual first-hand experience. I also know from my other hobby - "hi end" astronomical equipment and solar observation - that small incremental improvements can have significant cumulative effects, and there usually is a logarithmic increase in costs to achieve these small improvements. Thus the law of diminishing returns. I purchased my current set of hi-quality drivers with the hope for improvement without a demonstrated example that a real-world improvement would actually occur.
I have since found the subjective reviews of others are not really helpful. I have compared other well-reviewed and more costly newer speakers with more recent drivers to the Virgo's, and they turned out to be disappointing. Thus my renewed interest in DIY.
So while the Wavecore Ardents seem to be a possible path to audio Nirvana based on the quality and expense of the drivers and the skills and experience of the designer(s), they remain unheard. However, this is not much different in some regards to the "lesser" speakers considered, and makes the substantial expenditure of funds and efforts to execute them even more risky...
So a question would be is there a known builder and owner of this speaker system anywhere in Oregon, Washington, or Northern California that would possibly let me audition them? Otherwise I'm relying on blind faith that my expenditures and efforts will be rewarded with a significant improvement. It's one thing to expend another $1000.00 USD for a hoped for improvement, and quite another to expend 5 times or more that amount.
Importantly, if I decide to move forward with the Ardent, it seems the the heart of the speaker - the Accuton C90-9-079 midrange driver - is now listed by Madisound as "To be discontinued. Limited parts available to build more. Any order will be confirmed with Accuton first, then special order placed. Delivery could be 2 to 6 weeks depending on their schedule." AND the list price is $487.00. On the other hand, Flacon Acoustics in Great Britain lists this driver for £287, or about or about $372...? I don't think it would cost $230 to ship these to the USA.
Lastly, the link provided to the Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread is 19 pages long (!), and refers to multiple crossover changes and corrections in addition to other drivers being used. Is there a condensed reference which would show the most recent preferred drivers and crossover layout? This would make a novice speaker builder like me a bit more comfortable rather than having to check and cross-check multiple references to the evolving changes that have been made.
Again, much thanks for everyone's time and consideration.
🙂 yep... loudspeakers like air between them for breathing and smelling the better soundstage imho.
0.9m is not bad indeed ! after you enter in the dangerous area of the WAF and UFOs (oh no, not the Velodyn from Mars 😀)
0.9m is not bad indeed ! after you enter in the dangerous area of the WAF and UFOs (oh no, not the Velodyn from Mars 😀)
Again, contact Jon. 😉
(..I think he currently lives somewhere in Northern California.. or maybe it's Colorado, don't remember.) 😱
Hi Scott,
Jon's current Avatar indicates he lives in Danville, CA, which is in the SF Bay Area where I originally hail from. So I will attempt to contact him and hopefully be able to pay him a visit if/when COVID pandemic concerns can be mitigated (my pending retirement in 3 -10 months from EMS work 🙂.
In the meantime, I'm leaning towards using one or more of my existing drivers and MDF materials in a project as previously discussed. If I find there is a significant enough improvement (for my 60 + y/o ears anyway), the Ardent will be on the table the future, and I will have caught up my table saw and carpentry skills on the interim speaker... excited to see what lies ahead.
Thanks again to all who have offered their time and wisdom 🙂
Jon's current Avatar indicates he lives in Danville, CA, which is in the SF Bay Area where I originally hail from. So I will attempt to contact him and hopefully be able to pay him a visit if/when COVID pandemic concerns can be mitigated (my pending retirement in 3 -10 months from EMS work 🙂.
In the meantime, I'm leaning towards using one or more of my existing drivers and MDF materials in a project as previously discussed. If I find there is a significant enough improvement (for my 60 + y/o ears anyway), the Ardent will be on the table the future, and I will have caught up my table saw and carpentry skills on the interim speaker... excited to see what lies ahead.
Thanks again to all who have offered their time and wisdom 🙂
Be aware then Jon's Ardent needs a mid than is today NOS (but still sourcable as reading the HTguide thread). A mdf front bafle is certainly a possible trade off as far you respect the shapes of the design and its internal bracing.
..I think he's going to retire before you, and might be moving. Best to contact him sooner rather than later. 😉
Thanks Scott,
In the meantime, I've pulled the trigger on Jeff Bagby's SpiritWind kit from Meniscus. My rationale:
The weakest "link" with what I currently have for drivers apparently is the Scan-Speak 18W8545-00. With the SpiritWind the this is replaced by the newer Audio Technology 18H52-17-06-SD midwoofer, which is said to provide a more detailed midrange, crossed over apparently at 1-2 kHz to the Scan Speak D2509/9900 Revelator tweeter, which according to most appears to still offer near state-of-the-art real-world performance as measured by Marsh and Bagby (second 9900 baffled response curve and distortion graph). Both would seem to be working within their respective ranges with quite low distortion figures.
Additionally, the SpiritWind's form-factor is nearly identical to the Tony Gee Andromeda MT module I had originally envisioned. This will be mated to the NHT 1259 woofer in a separate larger sealed cabinet and powered by a Hypex Fusion FA251 250W DSP-enabled amplifier for fine-tuning the woofer response. The 1259 may not be the end all of subwoofer drivers, but as Jim notes it's still pretty not bad, especially since I rarely listen to music above about 90 db. It should suffice until if or when I replace it with something a little better...
Thanks again to all for your valuable time, interest, and input. I'll post the build once it's completed.
In the meantime, I've pulled the trigger on Jeff Bagby's SpiritWind kit from Meniscus. My rationale:
The weakest "link" with what I currently have for drivers apparently is the Scan-Speak 18W8545-00. With the SpiritWind the this is replaced by the newer Audio Technology 18H52-17-06-SD midwoofer, which is said to provide a more detailed midrange, crossed over apparently at 1-2 kHz to the Scan Speak D2509/9900 Revelator tweeter, which according to most appears to still offer near state-of-the-art real-world performance as measured by Marsh and Bagby (second 9900 baffled response curve and distortion graph). Both would seem to be working within their respective ranges with quite low distortion figures.
Additionally, the SpiritWind's form-factor is nearly identical to the Tony Gee Andromeda MT module I had originally envisioned. This will be mated to the NHT 1259 woofer in a separate larger sealed cabinet and powered by a Hypex Fusion FA251 250W DSP-enabled amplifier for fine-tuning the woofer response. The 1259 may not be the end all of subwoofer drivers, but as Jim notes it's still pretty not bad, especially since I rarely listen to music above about 90 db. It should suffice until if or when I replace it with something a little better...
Thanks again to all for your valuable time, interest, and input. I'll post the build once it's completed.
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