In my case it’s not some magical ingredient I’m looking for, just to be able to put the music back together from room and xo issues.
I’m able to tune the focus, which in turn leads to better accuracy and believability in playback. Phase alignment seems to play a big part in getting there, and dsp allows that. How exactly I’m not quite sure.....haven’t been able to pin it down yet.
I’m able to tune the focus, which in turn leads to better accuracy and believability in playback. Phase alignment seems to play a big part in getting there, and dsp allows that. How exactly I’m not quite sure.....haven’t been able to pin it down yet.
Here’s a couple quotes from ‘wesayso’ in another recent thread....this hits on what I’m getting at but obviously worded by someone who knows of what he speaks.
“I do realise it is not the popular view. We shouldn't be able to hear that time variant. Not sensitive to it according to many studies etc.”
“The mid/side EQ I use only works well when done linear phase. Little differences but quite easy to pick up on. I know and realise we can't hear all nuances of phase everywhere within the frequency spectrum used for music. But the more you get right, the more 'real' sounds become has been a re-occurring feature in my many experiments through the years. Even if I loose track every now and then... when backpedaling through what I've done so far there have been many magic moments. And the more I get it right, the more songs start to make sense. I refuse to write off songs as badly produced etc. Sure those do exist, but most people that mix/master for a living aren't that deaf. I don't turn knobs/adjust frequency balance between songs, as the more I get right, the more each song sets its own mood.
(leaving many bad productions from the early digital productions of the 80's out of this equation, as well as the useless dynamically crippled songs of later years)”
And this one really brings it home.....
“ To me it got quite confusing if we can't measure our way to better sound. Maybe I should change my signature (lol). I don't know what to look for exactly to quantify these differences. But I'm pretty sure they are hidden somewhere for us to discover.
Stereo remains a strange game, the confusing part of listening with two ears. That gullible brain in between that certainly plays a huge part in it all.... But as long as it is fun, evokes a lot of emotion from me (that is the prime reason for me to play) I'll continue my silly quest.
There aren't many things I enjoy as much as getting lost in the music. The emotional stir it brings... the chills down the spine. I love music and what it does to me. That is what makes this the ultimate hobby for me. I get to do what I like to do, build things with my hands, think up clever ways to advance my results and enjoy the fruits of all that labor. I could only wish for one more thing. A room for myself to play in. Where i could go completely nuts! It might be a good thing that i don't have a room like that...”
I’m just not able to relay information as well due to my lack of experience/knowledge/understanding of electronics.
I hope wesayso doesn’t mind me quoting him but from reading his posts I’m finding exactly the same type of experiences.
“I do realise it is not the popular view. We shouldn't be able to hear that time variant. Not sensitive to it according to many studies etc.”
“The mid/side EQ I use only works well when done linear phase. Little differences but quite easy to pick up on. I know and realise we can't hear all nuances of phase everywhere within the frequency spectrum used for music. But the more you get right, the more 'real' sounds become has been a re-occurring feature in my many experiments through the years. Even if I loose track every now and then... when backpedaling through what I've done so far there have been many magic moments. And the more I get it right, the more songs start to make sense. I refuse to write off songs as badly produced etc. Sure those do exist, but most people that mix/master for a living aren't that deaf. I don't turn knobs/adjust frequency balance between songs, as the more I get right, the more each song sets its own mood.
(leaving many bad productions from the early digital productions of the 80's out of this equation, as well as the useless dynamically crippled songs of later years)”
And this one really brings it home.....
“ To me it got quite confusing if we can't measure our way to better sound. Maybe I should change my signature (lol). I don't know what to look for exactly to quantify these differences. But I'm pretty sure they are hidden somewhere for us to discover.
Stereo remains a strange game, the confusing part of listening with two ears. That gullible brain in between that certainly plays a huge part in it all.... But as long as it is fun, evokes a lot of emotion from me (that is the prime reason for me to play) I'll continue my silly quest.
There aren't many things I enjoy as much as getting lost in the music. The emotional stir it brings... the chills down the spine. I love music and what it does to me. That is what makes this the ultimate hobby for me. I get to do what I like to do, build things with my hands, think up clever ways to advance my results and enjoy the fruits of all that labor. I could only wish for one more thing. A room for myself to play in. Where i could go completely nuts! It might be a good thing that i don't have a room like that...”
I’m just not able to relay information as well due to my lack of experience/knowledge/understanding of electronics.
I hope wesayso doesn’t mind me quoting him but from reading his posts I’m finding exactly the same type of experiences.
I was profoundly struck by this remark, Soundbloke!
Is it really true that up to now you could always proof with objective means every subjective finding?
I was simply under the impression that a lot of things that I experience by ear were not at all sorted out in the lab… Your findings therefore amaze me, and I feel rather ignorant because of it. Is seems I need to do a lot of reading and studying to keep up with the pace of time.
It is your good right to question our perceptual apparatus, and we can go as far as to question our own existence and ask ourselves if we really live this life or that we are just part of a dream…
Personally I am very happy to use my senses, and I am still regularly amazed by our hearing capabilities, for which I can only thank evolution and the speedy wolves and tigers that have threatened our ancestors. Our capacity to hear very subtle nuances in phase, could mean the difference between live or death. We all are descendants of those that had a better developed skill in hearing (including you Soundbloke!). Maybe we owe it to these carefully selected forefathers to not ridicule our listening skills that much…?
Certainly our forefathers have experienced deceptive impressions (they heard a tiger when there was only a cat), but when they would have resorted to the philosophy “our hearing may deceive us - let’s first test it in the lab) they would have become extinct for sure!
Sorry to respond so late.
Don't get me wrong. I do use my ears all the time to make certain decisions, and for me (personally) I have no hesitation to use terms like "more accurate", "better sound-stage", “better tonality” etc. etc.
It's just that other people will never accept or want to accept such subjectively derived convictions. And this thread underscores this all too well.
There is no way to convince all the others out there that your (or my) findings will have universal meaning. It won't, and I have to accept that.
There are many reasons for this, including the nature of high end audio and audiophile circles, that will understandably deter a lot of people. And indeed you just have to pick a brochure, a HiFi magazine, or the talk of an Audio salesmen to become totally allergic to all the idle words used in the world of audio.
Yes, there will fortunately be other people who like to read your findings (including myself), but that will always be a small minority. Most people don't care about sound at all, and others do as long as it can be easily measured because they fear to be dragged into a swampy forest of audio abracadabra.
Personally, I do have great respect for audio engineers that have a desire to improve their listening skills and apply these in their design. The few I personally know have nothing in common with the salesmen that take care of the commercial aspects. Salesmen neither measure nor do they listen. They care about the fancy chassis, the glittering knobs and the vague terms that can be used in the adds.
Many objectivists seem to think that the designers that design partly by ear are just salesmen, but the ones I know are everything but. They are often driven by a maniacal love for sound and music, and they rather would be able to deliver their work for lower prices to other music lovers instead of ending up with expensive stuff for millionaires. The fact that they have to comply with the economic reasoning of the financial guys is often a thorn into their eye.
Anyway, I am glad that we have this discussion here in the lounge, because here we can reflect without hindering the subjects of other threads.
Maybe if the subjectivists could write in the original threads their findings like; “in my subjective experience, the sound became more accurate by inserting part X of brand Y “
Then the objectivists could hopefully more easily resist their immediate attacks which always lead to a thorough derailment of the subject on hand?
That way both groups could maybe better live together and just accept each other’s different way of rationalising?
Yes, although you will see from my other posts in this thread and others that there are two issues: Firstly the order and type of objective measures is often insufficient and secondly the reliability of subjective responses is often not as good as proponents of 'golden ears' believe they are - and that is not me challenging their beliefs as I have also made clear that double blind testing is also not guaranteed to be a reliable measure. As someone else has made clear in this thread, however, reversing matters and trying to predict a subjective response from an objective measurement is a profoundly different challenge.
I have never ascribed any particular level of capability to my own hearing.
I would also add suggest the perceptual mechanism I am talking of (and the hysteretic nature of the modelling required to analyse it) emanates from our cognitive apparatus - the extent of which distinguishes our brains from other species and our early ancestors. Our perception of the world around us - deluded or otherwise - might well therefore exceed that of any life form of which we are aware.
As stated so many times previously, use of the term "accurate" renders any such statement meaningless. You are talking of an illusion that has no reference and so cannot be an accurate representation of it. I have been lucky to be present at several recording sessions, at times sat in what might be considered a prime listening spot, then listened to the recording immediately afterwards. Even in such conditions, the term accuracy is wholly misguided.
As an example, I have several high quality jazz recordings made at the famous Blue Note Club in New York City. When I listen at home, the acoustics of the club are unmistakeable, yet it sounds nothing like being there for real. And if you seek detail and intimacy in your reproduction, then the skill of the recording engineers gives you more of that at home than it does sat in the club listening to the live performance.
Bob: What you need to be aware here is that linear phase mid-side EQ is pretty esoteric. converting L-R stereo into sum-difference (or mid-side) is done in studios but rarely in domestic audio. But all references of this are for minimum phase EQ. Wesayo is cutting his own groove with this, but he does have a fairly unique setup and runs a lot of FIR filtering anyway. This is well in the zone of you need to know what your are doing and have everything else just so and are seasoning the final dish.
Now as to whether this is making the rendition more accurate or adding an effect I cannot comment without reading more on that thread. Personally I think defeatable tone controls are a fine idea for dealing with errant recordings.
Bill, That’s one of the things I was messing around with.....a summed center channel. And plan to continue experimentation in my new set up.
And I believe dsp is a more proper way than how I did it (Tie the line l-r + with series resistors before the junction, then tried same with a stereo alps pot I had to blend it better) about that same time I had to dismantle my system to finish the house, I’m about ready to put it back together. It’s not just that though, many of the things wesayso references are exactly my experiences. I suppose I just need to get up with him in a pm.
Because like you said.....I know not what I do!
And I believe dsp is a more proper way than how I did it (Tie the line l-r + with series resistors before the junction, then tried same with a stereo alps pot I had to blend it better) about that same time I had to dismantle my system to finish the house, I’m about ready to put it back together. It’s not just that though, many of the things wesayso references are exactly my experiences. I suppose I just need to get up with him in a pm.
Because like you said.....I know not what I do!
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Bob: Don't want to seem rude but what Weyaso is going and what you are doing is comparing a laser beam to a 10lb lump hammer.
yes Bill, my ineptitude is as obvious to myself as it is to you......they do let sportsmen class race on the same quarter mile as the top fuel ya know.
Learn by doing is my mantra.
Edit.....you know Bill, I thought this forum was about supporting people with interest in audio not to drag them down because their interest doesn’t align with yours or the herd. When I first got on this forum I thought your views were conservative but never condescending......times change I reckon.
Learn by doing is my mantra.
Edit.....you know Bill, I thought this forum was about supporting people with interest in audio not to drag them down because their interest doesn’t align with yours or the herd. When I first got on this forum I thought your views were conservative but never condescending......times change I reckon.
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I did say I didn't want to seem rude. I was just trying to point out that your chosen example is seriously extreme. A large percentage of people on here wouldn't even bother trying to get their heads around what he is doing. And of those that can another large chunk would dismiss it. Very esoteric and as I said not sure which side of the 'accuracy' line it sets on.
I should also note that, whilst I have the bits in place for a mid-side EQ setup to go into my rig at some time, this is all minimum phase (as in how studios do it) and all in the service of demangling vinyl for kicks. I am so far behind where Wesayo is it isn't even funny. So not dragging you down, but pointing out that path is very lonely and with a vertical learning curve.
BTW not sure what you mean by conservative. If you mean raising an eyebrow when people claim to hear things 20dB below the level of the quietest chambers on the planet then guilty. If you mean not willing to try something just because no one else has then you have me wrong!
Yes, I’m well aware.
By conservative I meant siding with reason and not questioning the status quo.
I’ve been on here for over a year.....if you haven’t figured it out esoteric is right up my alley.
If you’ve been following wesayso so closely then you should recognize many of the things he references subjectively do align with much of what I’ve been trying to say.....it’s just that I stumbled upon this stuff by ear through experimentation then having to reverse engineer what exactly I did to get to the favorable results.....not easy!
By conservative I meant siding with reason and not questioning the status quo.
I’ve been on here for over a year.....if you haven’t figured it out esoteric is right up my alley.
If you’ve been following wesayso so closely then you should recognize many of the things he references subjectively do align with much of what I’ve been trying to say.....it’s just that I stumbled upon this stuff by ear through experimentation then having to reverse engineer what exactly I did to get to the favorable results.....not easy!
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