I've already wasted too much time on this. I'm not going down Jakob's ladder 😛 with you. If you don't see it, don't agree, whatever, I really don't care.
There are forums like that, 1 being Audio Asylum which the official forum rule won't allow the mention of DBT.
That (in bold) is your personal (mis)interpretation of what went on between Naaling and barrows.
I don't have a problem with subjective impressions so long as they are backed up by measurements and are casually expressed as an after thought.
By this I mean so many people will make a small change to something, won't bother measuring anything, yet will proclaim, with such authoritative certainty, that you're basically an idiot, or the best one, that you must be deaf, if you either a) disagree or b) can't hear the difference.
You're just expected to believe their listening experience as something that cannot be questioned or criticised in any regard. Of course this makes sense because if you question them then it's the same as asking them to prove they can hear what they say they can. And if they end up being shown they can't hear it then you've just proven they're deaf which would destroy their sense of self when it comes to their relationship with audio.
Me on the other hand? I know I probably can't hear the difference but I'm going to do some things anyway. Why? Because it makes me happy and when I'm happy with my system it automatically sounds good. Providing it isn't broken.
Subjective impressions are personal and almost always contain an emotional response. They mean everything to you but absolutely nothing to someone else. Then the very next day the system you previously thought sounded great now sounds bad because you read an article on woven nano fiber capacitors opening the gates of your soundstage up to the heavens... And because your system only uses polypropylene and polystyrene, what a catastrophe, it doesn't sound as good any more.
Subjective impressions are fallible, correctly performed measurements are not. It makes no sense to discuss subjective impressions when they mean different things to different people. We can argue all day about them too because there is no common ground. And because they are personal we all think we are right. There is no end to it so what's the point? Just stick to the objective side of things for discussions, build the best equipment you can and do the subjective side of things at home.
By this I mean so many people will make a small change to something, won't bother measuring anything, yet will proclaim, with such authoritative certainty, that you're basically an idiot, or the best one, that you must be deaf, if you either a) disagree or b) can't hear the difference.
You're just expected to believe their listening experience as something that cannot be questioned or criticised in any regard. Of course this makes sense because if you question them then it's the same as asking them to prove they can hear what they say they can. And if they end up being shown they can't hear it then you've just proven they're deaf which would destroy their sense of self when it comes to their relationship with audio.
Me on the other hand? I know I probably can't hear the difference but I'm going to do some things anyway. Why? Because it makes me happy and when I'm happy with my system it automatically sounds good. Providing it isn't broken.
Subjective impressions are personal and almost always contain an emotional response. They mean everything to you but absolutely nothing to someone else. Then the very next day the system you previously thought sounded great now sounds bad because you read an article on woven nano fiber capacitors opening the gates of your soundstage up to the heavens... And because your system only uses polypropylene and polystyrene, what a catastrophe, it doesn't sound as good any more.
Subjective impressions are fallible, correctly performed measurements are not. It makes no sense to discuss subjective impressions when they mean different things to different people. We can argue all day about them too because there is no common ground. And because they are personal we all think we are right. There is no end to it so what's the point? Just stick to the objective side of things for discussions, build the best equipment you can and do the subjective side of things at home.
Similar claims been made on this thread by @Naaling and @chris719. Neither have produced any evidence to support their claims. Will your instance be any different?
I take questions as reasonable in this instance as without cross-examination how can we determine how robust their impressions really were? Of course some get defensive, that's just life.
This last claim is clearly false - I'm one such person to whom they mean something, even if that 'something' depends a whole lot on who's making the claims and (inter alia) if they get defensive when questioned.
But if asked to define this (very subjective word) 'correctly' I predict you will not be willing (or even able) to.
But to some of us, it makes some sense. But you appear to be speaking for everyone here which to me is simply unjustified arrogance. I take it what you really mean here is that it makes no sense to you. Which is fine, but pretending what makes no sense to you equally makes zero sense to everyone else is a delusion.
There can be common ground - when people make testable observations rather than simply give opinions like 'its better'. With enough experimental detail those who are inclined to can run the experiment for themselves at home rather than pontificate about how it cannot be so online 😀
Abrax you're one of the guys who, at least to me, likes to throw around his subjective impressions as if they are important and should be taken seriously. Especially with regards to the choices people make when deciding on what to build and how to build it.
The fact you've responded in such a way as to defend your position is of no surprise.
I don't mind you offering up your subjective impressions to people but the way you do it comes across as if it's from a position of authority, where it should really be taken with a grain of salt.
Most of the time the people you're talking to don't know any better so will believe you rather than treating what you say with the appropriate amount of salt they require.
The blind leading the blind comes to mind as a phrase. Those giving a subjective opinion on a device and those following that opinion. Maybe you're both happy with that status quo but it isn't befitting to what should be a technical forum. The subjective comments merely get in the way of the actual engineering and teaching/learning of the science behind it.
The fact you've responded in such a way as to defend your position is of no surprise.
I don't mind you offering up your subjective impressions to people but the way you do it comes across as if it's from a position of authority, where it should really be taken with a grain of salt.
Most of the time the people you're talking to don't know any better so will believe you rather than treating what you say with the appropriate amount of salt they require.
The blind leading the blind comes to mind as a phrase. Those giving a subjective opinion on a device and those following that opinion. Maybe you're both happy with that status quo but it isn't befitting to what should be a technical forum. The subjective comments merely get in the way of the actual engineering and teaching/learning of the science behind it.
That's when things can start to get interesting, it doesn't happen very often unfortunately. Quite often when I have asked if any measurements were taken when a listening impression is given the response is often very defensive and aggressive and then there's really very little point pursuing it. So now I tend to filter out subjective only posts, anything else is a waste of time.
I was hoping to quetly back out of this pointless discussion, but I can't let this misrepresentation pass.
@abraxalito did you read post #169?
You should have, because it was in direct answer to your question!
In that post @Evenharmonics cites 3 examples where @barrows used the word "ignorance" to described people who question or disagree with him.
Doesn't that at least imply an intolerance of opinions that are not consistant with his own? So I think its safe to say that he expected to be believed without question!
A sample size of one in an uncontrolled non-experiment is now claimed as scientific evidence?
Naaling,
In case You still could not get over with that discussion..
Take it like:
Your ignorance is our bliss.
Could we pass over, to a real discussion of interest?
Thank You.
In case You still could not get over with that discussion..
Take it like:
Your ignorance is our bliss.
Could we pass over, to a real discussion of interest?
Thank You.
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I think your question is fair. We shall all ask us this I think, independently of background and current profession.
//
As I pointed out, I only came back into the discussion because I was misrepresented. I note you have absolutely nothing to say about that!
Then I wouldn't expect anything else - avoid any factual information that doesn't fit into your own prejudice!
What is the point of discussing anything with someone, who can't see the truth when it is staring them in the face?
By the way, like @barrows your use of the word "ignorance", says much more about you than it does me.
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One problem with that type of question is that most people don't just decide on one reason for coming then make a decision to come simply for that one reason.
Also, if you ask people after the fact why they did this or that, they can usually produce an answer and usually they will believe the answer to be true.
An interesting question is where do answers to such questions come from in the brain? Research indicates such answers are often the product of System 1 (referring to the two system model of cognition). The product in that case is referred to as 'construction.' It is a guess generated by System 1 that will usually seem plausible to System 2, on which basis System 2 endorses it as true, usually without much or any other questioning thought process. The above is true for humans in general, although they generally don't know how they arrived at the answer, they just somehow know they 'knew it.'
Because such answers are guesses constructed by a process unobservable by System 2 and by default usually endorsed without examination, they tend to be highly unreliable as evidence of much other than general intelligence at thinking up clever/plausible answers.
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What regards the question of Syn08,
I was thinking about it as well.
I find it funny that it was (partially) aimed at me. I am one of those who is not part of the audio business, at all.
But a long time enthusiast. And I come here principally to learn. There is a beautiful multitude of really interesting minds and ideas ~freely exchanging between each other - in the fortunate side of the things.
And then the religious battles as well. This is where I get dragged in and away, myself too, have to admit.
But I have learned from syn08 a lot, too, even if I'm in a complete disagreement with his stubborn objectivist religion, I'm afraid to say.. 🙂
Then there are the business connections and publicity interest as well. But come on, something should drive those actively fighting this business, to drop at least some of the precious information they gained in the frontline..
Ciao, George
(And yes, i'm doing electronics and instrumentation but in a different field)
I was thinking about it as well.
I find it funny that it was (partially) aimed at me. I am one of those who is not part of the audio business, at all.
But a long time enthusiast. And I come here principally to learn. There is a beautiful multitude of really interesting minds and ideas ~freely exchanging between each other - in the fortunate side of the things.
And then the religious battles as well. This is where I get dragged in and away, myself too, have to admit.
But I have learned from syn08 a lot, too, even if I'm in a complete disagreement with his stubborn objectivist religion, I'm afraid to say.. 🙂
Then there are the business connections and publicity interest as well. But come on, something should drive those actively fighting this business, to drop at least some of the precious information they gained in the frontline..
Ciao, George
(And yes, i'm doing electronics and instrumentation but in a different field)
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