Mailzahifi is fully correct: this is one heck of midrange gem.
I got mine some 10 years ago from exactly the same B&O. Measured them for fun, and almost fell out of my chair. My measurements confirm the ITT measurements to a large extent, although the slight peak of mine was around 6 kHz. After 2.2 kHz a slight drooping of the SPL curve starts.
700 Hz to 2.2 kHz flat on axis (@1 m) within 1.5 dB on a 25 cm wide speaker front baffle, flush mounted. Not easy to top that even with today's best drivers.
Easy to filter with acoustic (no not electric!!) LR 4 at 750 Hz and 3 kHz. Dreamlike textbook fashion targeting with the proper simulation software.
Incidently, I have a feeling the at DIYAudio often mentioned and admired ATC 75 mm dome is straight rip off of the 50 mm ITT, albeit with a different and somewhat improved magnetic circuit to reduce distortion.
So, go for it, you will not be disppointed if this driver is used as a (properly filtered!) midrange.
Good luck,
Eelco
I got mine some 10 years ago from exactly the same B&O. Measured them for fun, and almost fell out of my chair. My measurements confirm the ITT measurements to a large extent, although the slight peak of mine was around 6 kHz. After 2.2 kHz a slight drooping of the SPL curve starts.
700 Hz to 2.2 kHz flat on axis (@1 m) within 1.5 dB on a 25 cm wide speaker front baffle, flush mounted. Not easy to top that even with today's best drivers.
Easy to filter with acoustic (no not electric!!) LR 4 at 750 Hz and 3 kHz. Dreamlike textbook fashion targeting with the proper simulation software.
Incidently, I have a feeling the at DIYAudio often mentioned and admired ATC 75 mm dome is straight rip off of the 50 mm ITT, albeit with a different and somewhat improved magnetic circuit to reduce distortion.
So, go for it, you will not be disppointed if this driver is used as a (properly filtered!) midrange.
Good luck,
Eelco
Hi Eelco,
What do you mean by "filter acoustic, no not electric" ?
I want to go over to a 6,5" ribbon somewhere around 2K5 / 3K,
but how would I filter this ?
Cheers,
Empee
If the driver slopes of by 12 db from 5 to 10 kHz and then you add a 12 dB electric filter with the same slope the accoustic summed slope will be 24 dB. So accoustic filters (the important parameter) and the electrical filter that is utilized to get those accoustical slopes are two different things.
Also used in the Meridian M1 active speaker. Have had a couple of pairs of Tandberg Studio Monitors in the past and they were very good - never quite sure about their double tweeters and old-school wide baffles though, so I think the ITT could be used in a great modern design project to improve imaging (the Tandbergs could be very good at that but required perfect setup as it was fleeting).
Regarding the ATC mid driver - one of it's secrets is the dome doping and material. Apparently the ATC's dome has a speed of sound exactly the same as that of air (average at room temp I guess at some average pressure!) and so it's interface with the air allows greater accuracy. (that last sentence was fudged as I'm slightly out of my depth there - trying to convey what I was told by Clive Kavan once (name-drop..) )
Regarding the ATC mid driver - one of it's secrets is the dome doping and material. Apparently the ATC's dome has a speed of sound exactly the same as that of air (average at room temp I guess at some average pressure!) and so it's interface with the air allows greater accuracy. (that last sentence was fudged as I'm slightly out of my depth there - trying to convey what I was told by Clive Kavan once (name-drop..) )
The secret of the ATC being its dome doping and material? Sounds like typical sales talk, including the speed of sound bit.
The ATC (just like the original ITT) dome will most likely come from the venerable Dr. Kurt Muller factory, the loudspeaker industries well kept secret supplier of high quality domes, cones and surrounds.
Eelco
The ATC (just like the original ITT) dome will most likely come from the venerable Dr. Kurt Muller factory, the loudspeaker industries well kept secret supplier of high quality domes, cones and surrounds.
Eelco
For that to be true the dome would have to have the same density as air which I find somewhat unlikely.
Fair enough lol
Something else then to do with the sound propagating in phase along the dome..
Well, the secret of the ATC being well regarded is in it's construction - that's a fact, a truism yet it also sounds like sales talk.
Unless of course one thinks that sound comes out of the ATC dome mid via magic and it's the spell doing it's thing regardless of what it's cast upon..
Hi All ! sorry to take up again this old thread
Speaking of dome drivers i see that someone comes with a short waveguide/horn like the one in discussione here
while others have just a flat disk around the dome.
From what i understand the 3" ATC, also similar to the ITT, is one of the best midrange around. Can this performance be related to this little waveguide ?
and therefore also this ITT midrange (that i am looking for at present) can share some very positive quality of the ATC dome ?
the ATC being beyond reach for me ...
Thanks for any kind and welcome advice.
P.S. to explain a little i am attaching a picture i have seen that has shocked me ... i cannot find more information
But if this is the effect of a horn i am putting a horn also to my shoes ... unbelievable ... what a improvement !
Speaking of dome drivers i see that someone comes with a short waveguide/horn like the one in discussione here
while others have just a flat disk around the dome.
From what i understand the 3" ATC, also similar to the ITT, is one of the best midrange around. Can this performance be related to this little waveguide ?
and therefore also this ITT midrange (that i am looking for at present) can share some very positive quality of the ATC dome ?
the ATC being beyond reach for me ...
Thanks for any kind and welcome advice.
P.S. to explain a little i am attaching a picture i have seen that has shocked me ... i cannot find more information
But if this is the effect of a horn i am putting a horn also to my shoes ... unbelievable ... what a improvement !
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Hi Ginetto,
This ITT dome midrange has only a very small waveguide which won't work wonders in the same way as above. It's more of a adapter ring to better match the thick baffle/front grill contraptions of that respective era. So, whatever qualities this driver has lies in the inner construction and whatever is left of it today due to materials changing over decades. Just my 0.02€.
This ITT dome midrange has only a very small waveguide which won't work wonders in the same way as above. It's more of a adapter ring to better match the thick baffle/front grill contraptions of that respective era. So, whatever qualities this driver has lies in the inner construction and whatever is left of it today due to materials changing over decades. Just my 0.02€.
Hi ! thank you very much indeed for your kind and precious reply.
I am a little ashamed to say it ... but reading great things about the ATC midrange drivers (from what i understand the very strong point of ATC pro monitors so popular in recording studios) i am looking for the poor guy ATC midrange ... and i saw that this very ITT was used in many high level speakers.
For now i have a pair of their little brothers ... lpkm/105/37/120, more a tweeter than a midrange (actually it was a wrong buy ... i misunderstood the german words
) I am confused ... my intention would be to put together a 3 ways monitor.
I am not so sure if the dome midrange approach is better than a cone midrange approach.
I see ... aging can be a real problem. I did not think about that
People are listening to vintage drivers from the 60s ... and they pay a lot for them like for Tannoy coaxials ... some have very very high prices
So ... what would you do ... dome or cone midrange for a 3 ways ?
i would not go for a 4 ways ... for me even a 3 ways is too complicated.
Another idea would be to use the smaller driver above mentioned with a decent 8" woofer ... maybe crossed at around 1kHz ?
Have a read: Design-Criteria
There is plenty of info on that website.
What should you do? I dunno, people prefer different things and some recommend their current "baby" to others without giving much thought.
Midrange domes have mostly been out of fashion. Drivers today are usually more flexible, having higher bandwidth (due to lower fs, less distortion, advanced materials = linearity and power handling). Have we lost some other attributes along the way? Some say yes, but I don't see actual evidence, and by this I mean measured performance.
Find out what YOU like, build, measure, listen, repeat...
Thank you very much indeed for the precious link. I start reading.
Yes ! i have noticed that looking at the best commercial models. Dome midranges are very rarely used.
Thanks again. To be precise are the words about the ATC driver that really started my curiosity. From what i understand many audio engineers mix their masters using them as a reference. This must say something.
Utter transparency and realism ?
Or just a good company providing great service as well as good monitors. Customer service in the pro industry is very important - resolving problems at short notice, carrying out repairs quickly etc. I think that is a massive part of their use in studios.
Popularity of a speaker has many many more factors than just audio quality.
Marketting and timing can often be the biggest reason that a product is popular - ATC came out with a good product in the 80s, at probably the beginning of the most affluent period in the music industry! Get your name known for a decent product at a time when studio albums were spending the biggest budgets and suddenly you can put in your marketting that all the great sounding albums were mixed on your speakers... now, it may be nothing to do with your speakers that they sounded great, but instead all the crazy money spent on everything else .... Suddenly your monitor product will be in demand (originally I think ATC sold more drive units to the likes of Westlake and Quested than their own speakers).
That's not to say that's the story of ATC, but just an example of how popularity of a professional product doesn't have to reflect anything other than that they are one of number of good monitor brands, not necessarily something magical.
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Hi ! thanks for the valuable advice. To stay on the market a good marketing strategy is fundamental. You are very right. And after all i do not have the least idea of what are the real needs of a recording engineer. I am focusing only the playback quality ... i would like to get the most that there is in a recording. To dig in it ...
This is very interesting indeed and the very reason of my question.
This could be the evidence of the exceptional quality of the ATC dome midrange. I had in the past the opportunity to buy a speaker with them in it.
Stupidly i did not understand their intrinseic value ... what a big mistake.
The price was more than reasonable.
Now ATC does not sell drivers alone and complete speakers are beyond my reach ... so i am looking for a poor guy ATC dome ...
But now i also understand that maybe a wiser choice would be a more common cone midrange ... still undecided on which route to take.
Not quite.
ATC did supply the likes of Quested, PMC and K&H/Neumann with mids but the moment they gained in popularity ATC stopped selling to them which lead Quested to approach Volt for a replacement (VM752), PMC to build their own and Klein&Hummel/Neumann to simply cancel the one model which used the ATC mid.
Never heard of Westlake using ATC drivers.
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