Hi guys,
I'm on the hunt for a really good sounding small faceplate tweeter. And I see that there are a couple of different choices, but I'm kind of thorn apart on which one to choose. And maybe I've missed one really good option out there, and hence this thread start.
About a month ago I started a thread on here looking for a very good sounding, easy to implement 4"-5" midrange. I got some good advice and was able to choose some alternatives to have in mind when proceeding in the stages of designing a speaker on my own.
Then I was almost completely set on building a 3 way TMWW using a tweeter a 4/5" mid and 2x8" woofers.
But, as I want the speaker to be full range or nearly full range, bigger volumes for the woofers are a priority(and woofers working good with a low F3) I started thinking that going MTMWW or even WMTMW might be a good idea, with some new considerations of course. Maybe even WWMTMWW.
Thinking some more, I got to the point where I decided that no matter what way I go, a small faceplate tweeter would have benefits.
The obvious one is the C-C spacing between drivers, and in some cases a nicer look than large face plate tweeters. Waveguide loading might also be a area where a small face plate might be beneficial.
So, I started googling and checking what's available and often recommended in this department of tweeters.
There is one tweeter that started to be an obvious choice and often recommended, the Vifa D26NC55-06.
This quite cheap very small height and good looking tweeter is unfortunately, as all Vifa drivers NLA, discontinued. A shame really.
If this tweeter were available, I would have gone with it and wouldn't have chosen to start this thread. Or maybe I would have done anyway as there doesn't seem to be any other thread on diyaudio discussing specifically and only small faceplate tweeters.
So, now I wonder what else is out there, that are proven to sound good and preferably is quite easy to work with?
These are some of the choices I've found:
Peerless BC/OT/OX/DX/XT/NE series
Seas 27TAFNC/TFFNC
Wavecor TW030/TW022 series
SB SB29RDNC/SB26STCN
S-S 6020/6040 series
Morel ST 728/ET 448/CAT 408
If looking for the above specific driver, some googling of your own might be nessecary to find the model in the series that have a small faceplate. Too many to write them all up here.
All above have no more than 75mm height, and a lot of them around 50-55mm height. Quite a bit better than the usual 105mm.
Some with round face plate and some not. Some with small WG loading and some not.
When it comes to these tweeters, I haven't seen a obvious choice sticking out..
Intended use in my case:
Crossover around 2,5-3khz to either a M or M-M.
Maybe WG loaded(not SEOS type WG)
Preferably able to cope with a lower crossover point, but this is not an important consideration in my build.
Easy to design around.
Preferably flat to 20khz and above.
Preferably no severe break up nodes(kind of puts metal domes in a disadvantage)
Low distortion.
High resolution.
So, if you had to go with a small face plate tweeter, which would it have been, and why?
Also, do you think there are any negatives from using small face plate tweeters?
Please comment if you have any experience using these kind of tweeters or have anything else in mind when it comes to small faceplate tweeters.
Best regards, MIJK
I'm on the hunt for a really good sounding small faceplate tweeter. And I see that there are a couple of different choices, but I'm kind of thorn apart on which one to choose. And maybe I've missed one really good option out there, and hence this thread start.
About a month ago I started a thread on here looking for a very good sounding, easy to implement 4"-5" midrange. I got some good advice and was able to choose some alternatives to have in mind when proceeding in the stages of designing a speaker on my own.
Then I was almost completely set on building a 3 way TMWW using a tweeter a 4/5" mid and 2x8" woofers.
But, as I want the speaker to be full range or nearly full range, bigger volumes for the woofers are a priority(and woofers working good with a low F3) I started thinking that going MTMWW or even WMTMW might be a good idea, with some new considerations of course. Maybe even WWMTMWW.
Thinking some more, I got to the point where I decided that no matter what way I go, a small faceplate tweeter would have benefits.
The obvious one is the C-C spacing between drivers, and in some cases a nicer look than large face plate tweeters. Waveguide loading might also be a area where a small face plate might be beneficial.
So, I started googling and checking what's available and often recommended in this department of tweeters.
There is one tweeter that started to be an obvious choice and often recommended, the Vifa D26NC55-06.
This quite cheap very small height and good looking tweeter is unfortunately, as all Vifa drivers NLA, discontinued. A shame really.
If this tweeter were available, I would have gone with it and wouldn't have chosen to start this thread. Or maybe I would have done anyway as there doesn't seem to be any other thread on diyaudio discussing specifically and only small faceplate tweeters.
So, now I wonder what else is out there, that are proven to sound good and preferably is quite easy to work with?
These are some of the choices I've found:
Peerless BC/OT/OX/DX/XT/NE series
Seas 27TAFNC/TFFNC
Wavecor TW030/TW022 series
SB SB29RDNC/SB26STCN
S-S 6020/6040 series
Morel ST 728/ET 448/CAT 408
If looking for the above specific driver, some googling of your own might be nessecary to find the model in the series that have a small faceplate. Too many to write them all up here.
All above have no more than 75mm height, and a lot of them around 50-55mm height. Quite a bit better than the usual 105mm.
Some with round face plate and some not. Some with small WG loading and some not.
When it comes to these tweeters, I haven't seen a obvious choice sticking out..
Intended use in my case:
Crossover around 2,5-3khz to either a M or M-M.
Maybe WG loaded(not SEOS type WG)
Preferably able to cope with a lower crossover point, but this is not an important consideration in my build.
Easy to design around.
Preferably flat to 20khz and above.
Preferably no severe break up nodes(kind of puts metal domes in a disadvantage)
Low distortion.
High resolution.
So, if you had to go with a small face plate tweeter, which would it have been, and why?
Also, do you think there are any negatives from using small face plate tweeters?
Please comment if you have any experience using these kind of tweeters or have anything else in mind when it comes to small faceplate tweeters.
Best regards, MIJK
I have been working with SS D2004/6020, D3004/6020 and 602010. All very good sounding, low distortion and are ok with lower crossover points down to 2kHz. 6020 versions require RLC for impedance peak. D2004 is more smoother or lighter sounding, D3004 have more body. R2004/3004 will be similarly good I assume, and sounding closer to 7000.
I listened to SB26STCN, just few songs, it seemed very good for the money.
I would consider also tweeters with plastic, removable faceplate. In that case you can cut midrange into tweeter faceplate with the router.
SB21SDC/RDC seem very good for low budget tweeters and faceplate is removable. Same goes for SB26ADC/CDC.
New Bliesma 25mm tweeters have ~68mm faceplates, though these are quite expensive.
I listened to SB26STCN, just few songs, it seemed very good for the money.
I would consider also tweeters with plastic, removable faceplate. In that case you can cut midrange into tweeter faceplate with the router.
SB21SDC/RDC seem very good for low budget tweeters and faceplate is removable. Same goes for SB26ADC/CDC.
New Bliesma 25mm tweeters have ~68mm faceplates, though these are quite expensive.
Tang Band has a nice small tweeter with a 2k crossover point possible. 48mm square.
Test Bench: Tang Band Speaker W8-2314 High-End Coaxial Driver | audioXpress
Tang Band Speaker 25-2234SD High-Resolution 1-Inch Aluminum and Magnesium Dome Tweeter | audioXpress
Looks like you can cut off quite a bit off the flange of the CSS LD22F. Wavecor 22mm looks exactly the same.
CSS LD22F 22mm Tweeter
For small waveguide loaded tweeters it looks like Wavecor and Seas DXT are your best options.
Test Bench: Tang Band Speaker W8-2314 High-End Coaxial Driver | audioXpress
Tang Band Speaker 25-2234SD High-Resolution 1-Inch Aluminum and Magnesium Dome Tweeter | audioXpress
Looks like you can cut off quite a bit off the flange of the CSS LD22F. Wavecor 22mm looks exactly the same.
CSS LD22F 22mm Tweeter
For small waveguide loaded tweeters it looks like Wavecor and Seas DXT are your best options.
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I've just started playing with a pair of these: very cheap & no faceplate at all!!
Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Neodymium Dome Tweeter 4 Ohm
They sound good, although I've got them crossed over quite high
Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Neodymium Dome Tweeter 4 Ohm
They sound good, although I've got them crossed over quite high
Ahem, your NLA reincarnate:
Peerless by Tymphany D26NC56-06 1" Fabric Dome Tweeter 6 Ohm
Later,
Wolf
Peerless by Tymphany D26NC56-06 1" Fabric Dome Tweeter 6 Ohm
Later,
Wolf
Well, Wolf might've just ended this thread, but just in case he hasn't...
You might consider the Dayton PTMini-6 or AMT Mini-8 if you're able and willing to cross at more like 5kHz (shouldn't be an issue with a 4 inch mid). The PT's frequency response does drop above 10 kHz, but it's easy to flatten out with a lower value cap in series after the rest of the high pass filter since the drop is at about 6dB/octave
Also, not sure if the size meets your needs, but I've used the SB26STAC and it is wonderful. Crosses pretty low too
Edit: Also, the D26NC56 has an Fs of over 1600 Hz, so I wouldn't cross ot below about 3000 Hz probably
You might consider the Dayton PTMini-6 or AMT Mini-8 if you're able and willing to cross at more like 5kHz (shouldn't be an issue with a 4 inch mid). The PT's frequency response does drop above 10 kHz, but it's easy to flatten out with a lower value cap in series after the rest of the high pass filter since the drop is at about 6dB/octave
Also, not sure if the size meets your needs, but I've used the SB26STAC and it is wonderful. Crosses pretty low too
Edit: Also, the D26NC56 has an Fs of over 1600 Hz, so I wouldn't cross ot below about 3000 Hz probably
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One of the little known gems of teh speaker building on the webs is Ryan of Impulse Audio.
He seems to use a lot of small-faceplate tweeters:
The Peerless aka Tymphany XT25SC90-04 at 65mm:
XT25SC90-04 – Tymphany
The SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 at 72mm.
SB29RDNC-C000-4 :: SB Acoustics
Various videos. This small project uses the XT25 and an SB Acoustics SB Acoustics SB13PFC25-04. YouTube
But really you could wire those two woofers in series for an MTM, you know, double inductance and resistors in the bass section, halve capacitors. Leave the tweeter section the same. Ends up nearer 8 ohms too, which is win-win, IMO.
A review of three goodish tweeters here:
YouTube
Plenty to choose from, for sure. I think it is a common trick with the SB and XT25 to add a couple of ohms resistance in series to keep the impedance further up from 3 ohms.
He seems to use a lot of small-faceplate tweeters:
The Peerless aka Tymphany XT25SC90-04 at 65mm:
XT25SC90-04 – Tymphany
The SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 at 72mm.
SB29RDNC-C000-4 :: SB Acoustics
Various videos. This small project uses the XT25 and an SB Acoustics SB Acoustics SB13PFC25-04. YouTube
But really you could wire those two woofers in series for an MTM, you know, double inductance and resistors in the bass section, halve capacitors. Leave the tweeter section the same. Ends up nearer 8 ohms too, which is win-win, IMO.
A review of three goodish tweeters here:
YouTube
Plenty to choose from, for sure. I think it is a common trick with the SB and XT25 to add a couple of ohms resistance in series to keep the impedance further up from 3 ohms.
Yes there are some really nice options available.
Why does manufacturer keep on going with 105/110mm face plates? What's the winning part of it? Or is it just because it is the common size used thru time?
The TB tweeters had I forgotten, long time since I visited their site last.
Wolf,
I've seen that NC56 version and almost ordered a pair directly, but when I printed the pdf's I found from Vifa and the new from Peerless, I noticed the QTS and Fs is not the same, not even close. And the off axis dispersion isn't even near the same.
This makes me wonder how close they are when it comes to the sound they produce.
Thou, it does look like the NC56 is better than the NC55 thur my novice eyes Thou. Dispersion is much more alike thru the off axis measurements.
What do you guys think of it if you look at these differences?
Crossing at around 3khz is what I was looking at anyway, so that doesn't really bother me so much.
Impulse audio is a YouTube site I've gown thud almost everything on, he got some nice videos and his quick tutorial on Xsim helped loosen some for me when it comes to crossovers. I've been searching the net dry for really in depth crossover "guides" and didn't really find very much, but reading what I've found and piecing it together has helped.
What I'm looking for now would be a nice site showing different ways of doing it and placing of components that's is more off the usual path.. It would be a nice find.
The SB drivers seems to be a very popular choice these days. It seems like no one has anything bad to say about any of their drivers almost. It makes me wanna try them out. When it comes to their midranges I'm keeping of them until I'm better at designing crossovers, for now I'll keep to the drivers with a more benign break up.
One of their tweeters thou are probably going to end up in my ownership. I'm kind of thorn between the SB26 or the dimple dome SB29. Which would you have gone with?
Tweeters of high value aren't especially expensive so I guess it is worth the 100-300€ it would cost to try a couple of them out. Selling them or using in another project is a possibility as those mentioned here are all great sounding, it seems.
I also keep reading good things about AMT's but for now I'm going with a soft dome tweeter I think, it's a sound I now i like. But further on I'm goigg to try planars.
The ribbons I've heard on a few commercial speakers sounded really nice, but there was something that did sounded a bit special, I couldn't figure out what Thou.
These were no high end speakers so maybe the implementation was the culprit.
When it comes to Dayton audio, their FRD and ZMA files are a huge help for me when learning crossovers, but over here in EU their drivers aren't specially cheap, and are at the same price as SEAS for the most part, and at that price point I think there for the most part are other choices that interests me more.
But peerless has a pair of similar tweeters as the ND, with no face plate at all, also at ~ 20mm size.
If you guys only had to choose one of these drivers for the rest of your life and future projects, which one would you have gone with?
Why does manufacturer keep on going with 105/110mm face plates? What's the winning part of it? Or is it just because it is the common size used thru time?
The TB tweeters had I forgotten, long time since I visited their site last.
Wolf,
I've seen that NC56 version and almost ordered a pair directly, but when I printed the pdf's I found from Vifa and the new from Peerless, I noticed the QTS and Fs is not the same, not even close. And the off axis dispersion isn't even near the same.
This makes me wonder how close they are when it comes to the sound they produce.
Thou, it does look like the NC56 is better than the NC55 thur my novice eyes Thou. Dispersion is much more alike thru the off axis measurements.
What do you guys think of it if you look at these differences?
Crossing at around 3khz is what I was looking at anyway, so that doesn't really bother me so much.
Impulse audio is a YouTube site I've gown thud almost everything on, he got some nice videos and his quick tutorial on Xsim helped loosen some for me when it comes to crossovers. I've been searching the net dry for really in depth crossover "guides" and didn't really find very much, but reading what I've found and piecing it together has helped.
What I'm looking for now would be a nice site showing different ways of doing it and placing of components that's is more off the usual path.. It would be a nice find.
The SB drivers seems to be a very popular choice these days. It seems like no one has anything bad to say about any of their drivers almost. It makes me wanna try them out. When it comes to their midranges I'm keeping of them until I'm better at designing crossovers, for now I'll keep to the drivers with a more benign break up.
One of their tweeters thou are probably going to end up in my ownership. I'm kind of thorn between the SB26 or the dimple dome SB29. Which would you have gone with?
Tweeters of high value aren't especially expensive so I guess it is worth the 100-300€ it would cost to try a couple of them out. Selling them or using in another project is a possibility as those mentioned here are all great sounding, it seems.
I also keep reading good things about AMT's but for now I'm going with a soft dome tweeter I think, it's a sound I now i like. But further on I'm goigg to try planars.
The ribbons I've heard on a few commercial speakers sounded really nice, but there was something that did sounded a bit special, I couldn't figure out what Thou.
These were no high end speakers so maybe the implementation was the culprit.
When it comes to Dayton audio, their FRD and ZMA files are a huge help for me when learning crossovers, but over here in EU their drivers aren't specially cheap, and are at the same price as SEAS for the most part, and at that price point I think there for the most part are other choices that interests me more.
But peerless has a pair of similar tweeters as the ND, with no face plate at all, also at ~ 20mm size.
If you guys only had to choose one of these drivers for the rest of your life and future projects, which one would you have gone with?
Nothing wrong with crossing to a tweeter at 3k and above if your midrange drivers are 100mm or thereabouts. I think 110mm face plates come about as a natural consequence of 25mm voice coils and a magnet large enough to give good transient response. Why more manufacturers don't use neodymium donut magnets astounds me
I would definitely pick the sb26stac if it was my last one ever and I wasn't spending stupid amounts of money.
I chose the SB26 over SB29 because I thought the distortion curves looked better. Hificompass has lots of useful measurements to look at, as well as audioexcite that can help you figure out where to cross each tweeter. Some of them that can theoretically cross low have highish distortion at higher frequencies than you might expect.
Edit: hificompass does have english available too, just defaults to Russian. Theres a button in the top right.
I chose the SB26 over SB29 because I thought the distortion curves looked better. Hificompass has lots of useful measurements to look at, as well as audioexcite that can help you figure out where to cross each tweeter. Some of them that can theoretically cross low have highish distortion at higher frequencies than you might expect.
Edit: hificompass does have english available too, just defaults to Russian. Theres a button in the top right.
As it looks and feels right now, I'm going with D26NC55, but I'm going to see if I might be able to get hold of a pair of the originals, and pair them with one of the HDS 4" as mid/s and possibly HDS 8"s.
That would make it possible to have a 10cm C-C distance of mid to tweet. The HDS mids also have an as nice as I can find roll of, at the spec sheet. I think this would make a ~ 3Khz crossover work without severe problems. The HDS 4" as per spec sheet seem to keep the power response together that high.
Anyone know where I can find. FRD and. ZMA files for one of the HDS 4" drivers?
I kind of like Peerless, the speakers I'm building now are all HDS. The Elsinore's. If I wasn't already building a pair of 2,5 way multi mid/woofer speaker, that would have been my first choice.
But, if I'm going to build a speaker, it makes sense to build something different, and going 3 way forces me to learn how to construct a proper 3 way.
I'm struggling a bit with making a nice cross from the woofers to the mid at around 3-400 hz. Way harder than making a nice cross between mid/tweeter.
I think I need to check some more crossovers and copy them and simulate it in Xsim to see what makes it work and not.
I have a question regarding phase in Xsim.
The phase are shown like a Z laying on its back, is it necessary to have them align as much as possible over the frequency range, or is it just at the cross it is important? I've read that a nice large null is what one is looking for when reversing the polarity, and that isnt so hard to make, but the phase at all other places, is it meant to be aligned there too, for as good as possible result?
And what to do with off axis/power response, should I simulate at 15, 30 and 45° too and try to make it as nice as possible looking at all angle's?
I have a lot of questions when it comes to simulating. I have kind of been evading that bit, but I have found I enjoy it a lot.
That would make it possible to have a 10cm C-C distance of mid to tweet. The HDS mids also have an as nice as I can find roll of, at the spec sheet. I think this would make a ~ 3Khz crossover work without severe problems. The HDS 4" as per spec sheet seem to keep the power response together that high.
Anyone know where I can find. FRD and. ZMA files for one of the HDS 4" drivers?
I kind of like Peerless, the speakers I'm building now are all HDS. The Elsinore's. If I wasn't already building a pair of 2,5 way multi mid/woofer speaker, that would have been my first choice.
But, if I'm going to build a speaker, it makes sense to build something different, and going 3 way forces me to learn how to construct a proper 3 way.
I'm struggling a bit with making a nice cross from the woofers to the mid at around 3-400 hz. Way harder than making a nice cross between mid/tweeter.
I think I need to check some more crossovers and copy them and simulate it in Xsim to see what makes it work and not.
I have a question regarding phase in Xsim.
The phase are shown like a Z laying on its back, is it necessary to have them align as much as possible over the frequency range, or is it just at the cross it is important? I've read that a nice large null is what one is looking for when reversing the polarity, and that isnt so hard to make, but the phase at all other places, is it meant to be aligned there too, for as good as possible result?
And what to do with off axis/power response, should I simulate at 15, 30 and 45° too and try to make it as nice as possible looking at all angle's?
I have a lot of questions when it comes to simulating. I have kind of been evading that bit, but I have found I enjoy it a lot.
As far as phase goes, it is most important to match it near the xover frequencies. Some people claim that constant flat phase throughout the range, or as close as you can get to it, will improve the depth and imaging of the sound - I can't confirm or refute that though myself.
And your Peerless drivers should make a great speaker. They seem to have exceptionally good sound for the price usually and are probably the best value out there in Europe since Dayton is expensive there
And your Peerless drivers should make a great speaker. They seem to have exceptionally good sound for the price usually and are probably the best value out there in Europe since Dayton is expensive there
Moondog,
Yeah, it seems somewhat strange that there isn't more noe tweeters out there. Obviously as seen in this thread there are a bunch of them available, but, it's still maybe 4-5x as many Ferrite ones out there. I really can't see the negatives out of going neo/small faceplate. But I'm no driver designer either, so I might miss something that's very obvious to those who do design and engineer drivers.
The original NC55 was a very often used driver here in Sweden it seems like. One very famous speaker builder here who engineer his own drivers has a version of it too. That one is available at a higher price and with no option to order it thou, need to travel to him to pick it up and that's far away from me.
But I'm still going to see if I can find a pair of the NC55, somewhere..
I guess you've tried them both? And the old one is the winner, by far?
I might be interested in your pair.. But shipping from AU, is as far from me as one can come. I don't know what that might end up at? Can I come back to you on this matter, if it is the only option getting hold of a pair?
As I mentioned I feel it is sad that all teh Vifa products are gone by now, there seems to have been a couple of products that were as easy as they come to for beginners like me.
ILikeFoodz,
Thanks for helping me with twee phase issue and your thoughts about the SB26.
It seems like it is the best choice for me from what's easily available today. Price is really nice too. Going SB also let's me see what their drivers are like up close, feel and quality wise which seems like they Excel at.
Patrick,
Will check that thread out, and yeah the VTS/VTC driver are interesting, and are as small as they come.
Yeah, it seems somewhat strange that there isn't more noe tweeters out there. Obviously as seen in this thread there are a bunch of them available, but, it's still maybe 4-5x as many Ferrite ones out there. I really can't see the negatives out of going neo/small faceplate. But I'm no driver designer either, so I might miss something that's very obvious to those who do design and engineer drivers.
The original NC55 was a very often used driver here in Sweden it seems like. One very famous speaker builder here who engineer his own drivers has a version of it too. That one is available at a higher price and with no option to order it thou, need to travel to him to pick it up and that's far away from me.
But I'm still going to see if I can find a pair of the NC55, somewhere..
I guess you've tried them both? And the old one is the winner, by far?
I might be interested in your pair.. But shipping from AU, is as far from me as one can come. I don't know what that might end up at? Can I come back to you on this matter, if it is the only option getting hold of a pair?
As I mentioned I feel it is sad that all teh Vifa products are gone by now, there seems to have been a couple of products that were as easy as they come to for beginners like me.
ILikeFoodz,
Thanks for helping me with twee phase issue and your thoughts about the SB26.
It seems like it is the best choice for me from what's easily available today. Price is really nice too. Going SB also let's me see what their drivers are like up close, feel and quality wise which seems like they Excel at.
Patrick,
Will check that thread out, and yeah the VTS/VTC driver are interesting, and are as small as they come.
I have used this tiny tweeter from dayton audio
Crossed high enough it sounds great
Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Soft Dome Neodymium Tweeter
Crossed high enough it sounds great
Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Soft Dome Neodymium Tweeter
By a small margin, they seemed more forward too
Postage to Sweden from here is $30- for a 500g package so not really value.
That's 198Kroner at the current rate
They are sitting on the shelf because I have really messed up the routering on both attempts to use them
I might feel different about them since I was fitted with hearing aids tho this week
Postage to Sweden from here is $30- for a 500g package so not really value.
That's 198Kroner at the current rate
They are sitting on the shelf because I have really messed up the routering on both attempts to use them
I might feel different about them since I was fitted with hearing aids tho this week
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