I answer the original OP question.
I have not read all the answers.
I keep in my memory the many years in advice / sale of audio equipment, and therefore a lot of experience exchanging different acoustic cabinets and amplifiers in the golden age of SS audio, back in the 70s / 80s.
I clarify that there was no class D or SMPS, I will only refer to conventional complementary output stages, robust output transistors and generously designed PS.
The OP asks for performance at low frequencies specifically.
My answer is: YES, it will have better performance in bass, both low volume and high.
In low volumes the power reserve of a generous source helps the dynamic range remarkably, and is very audible.
And in high volumes it will also help, because the extra power margin prevents us from entering the clipping area.
The only precaution (and for this we must have some basic knowledge of electronics applied to audio) is not to exceed the maximum permissible power of the speakers.
But, if we have judgment and good hearing, the speaker will warn us (the blow of the voice coil on the pole piece is the most common) that it can not withstand more power, so the benefits vs. the damages will depend on the sanity of the operator of the volume knob.
I have not read all the answers.
I keep in my memory the many years in advice / sale of audio equipment, and therefore a lot of experience exchanging different acoustic cabinets and amplifiers in the golden age of SS audio, back in the 70s / 80s.
I clarify that there was no class D or SMPS, I will only refer to conventional complementary output stages, robust output transistors and generously designed PS.
The OP asks for performance at low frequencies specifically.
My answer is: YES, it will have better performance in bass, both low volume and high.
In low volumes the power reserve of a generous source helps the dynamic range remarkably, and is very audible.
And in high volumes it will also help, because the extra power margin prevents us from entering the clipping area.
The only precaution (and for this we must have some basic knowledge of electronics applied to audio) is not to exceed the maximum permissible power of the speakers.
But, if we have judgment and good hearing, the speaker will warn us (the blow of the voice coil on the pole piece is the most common) that it can not withstand more power, so the benefits vs. the damages will depend on the sanity of the operator of the volume knob.
I am a bit more on the design and simulating side, and less on practical builds.
(However, my job is to repair electronic industrial equipment where no risk is affordable) So, granting your experience, I shall add flybacks in the first born and probe into the outcome with a nice electrostatic as load on thundervolume. It's no effort to add a spycircuit on these flybacks to see if they're needed.
To stay on topic, oversized amps are in my (electronic experience) better suited on low power levels, simply because they do not stirr by featherloads. Once things begin to move, the amp must be designed (and build!) to cope with a more demanding practise.
But on the contrary, the best sound sofar in my experience was a 2W tube amp (ecc83 for front and tone, el95 and transformer for the main) connected to the electrostatics (>>50W minimum requirement). Utterly flabberghasting.
I almost could guess the name of the cat were the violin snares were made off its bowels...
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I am one who was always fascinated, by the sound of high power amplifiers feeding high power speakers, even at moderate powers achievable by other 'normal' amplifiers. For my ears, the sound is different and more pleasing.
This is like driving a working class car compared to driving a high power car. The latter offers more driving thrill; the same can be said about an ear-drum blasting sound system.
This is like driving a working class car compared to driving a high power car. The latter offers more driving thrill; the same can be said about an ear-drum blasting sound system.
In response to the three prior post - Yes, this is my experience as well.
I refer to it as my gut feeling in my earlier posts, the FP6400 should be less load sensitive than the IP450 by it's very nature, and so is should handle the assumed difficult load in a better way, translating into better sound quality, or perhaps a more consistent sound quality given load variations, at any level, even low ones.
I am very close to apply the phrase "less load sensitive" as a substitute for "good sound quality" in amplifiers, as this would allow the amplifier keep it's signature (sound) with a greater range of loads (speakers).
Expanding on that, my gut feeling (the least stated scientific approach one could ever take) tells me that a more powerful amplifier would inherit more of this trait by it's very nature, but maybe this is not always the case, so is this notion (or gut feeling) of mine really true?
Perhaps it is not always true, but maybe it is rather more likely to be correct, if that makes any sense?
If it is not true, then what are the main features of an amplifier apart from it's shear power capacity that would allow it to a greater extent disregard the load? (or be less load sensitive?).
A good start would perhaps be too look at what properties the more powerful amplifier (FP6400) has at low levels that the less powerful one (IP450) lacks with regards to it's load sensitivity.
I bet both of them would bench-measure close to perfect on a dummy load (resistor load) by the way, if not even in favor of the IP450, is this really how amplifiers are designed (if so there are some room for improvement)
Again, I'm far, far more of a speaker guy than an amp guy when it comes to technical knowledge such as this, so please forgive if the rather low level of reasoning here, just trying to learn.
I refer to it as my gut feeling in my earlier posts, the FP6400 should be less load sensitive than the IP450 by it's very nature, and so is should handle the assumed difficult load in a better way, translating into better sound quality, or perhaps a more consistent sound quality given load variations, at any level, even low ones.
I am very close to apply the phrase "less load sensitive" as a substitute for "good sound quality" in amplifiers, as this would allow the amplifier keep it's signature (sound) with a greater range of loads (speakers).
Expanding on that, my gut feeling (the least stated scientific approach one could ever take) tells me that a more powerful amplifier would inherit more of this trait by it's very nature, but maybe this is not always the case, so is this notion (or gut feeling) of mine really true?
Perhaps it is not always true, but maybe it is rather more likely to be correct, if that makes any sense?
If it is not true, then what are the main features of an amplifier apart from it's shear power capacity that would allow it to a greater extent disregard the load? (or be less load sensitive?).
A good start would perhaps be too look at what properties the more powerful amplifier (FP6400) has at low levels that the less powerful one (IP450) lacks with regards to it's load sensitivity.
I bet both of them would bench-measure close to perfect on a dummy load (resistor load) by the way, if not even in favor of the IP450, is this really how amplifiers are designed (if so there are some room for improvement)
Again, I'm far, far more of a speaker guy than an amp guy when it comes to technical knowledge such as this, so please forgive if the rather low level of reasoning here, just trying to learn.
Minimum load impedance and output impedance (sometimes specified as damping factor) are the specs to ponder.
A power amp at low amplitude will handle a smaller load impedance than at high amplitude without clipping, but the distortion story is more complex.
Alas minimum load impedances are normally only quoted as resistive, not reactive, which would be more indicative of performance into a real speaker.
A power amp at low amplitude will handle a smaller load impedance than at high amplitude without clipping, but the distortion story is more complex.
Alas minimum load impedances are normally only quoted as resistive, not reactive, which would be more indicative of performance into a real speaker.
Now there are a lot of variabeles at once in perspective: topology, demand and quench, muscle and extent (not quit the right translations, but close), all to take into account when posting an opinon about one's own personal experience given the running topic.
I am absolutelely not sure, as cannot anyone, how to tigh this knot to perfect ends.
It proves ultimately that there are more perfect realities then a single to mount.
The initial question digs to the source of what we're diy doing really.
I am absolutelely not sure, as cannot anyone, how to tigh this knot to perfect ends.
It proves ultimately that there are more perfect realities then a single to mount.
The initial question digs to the source of what we're diy doing really.
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I remember my first amp build.
I think it ran off about 20 volt rails.
I found the output quickly hit the rails with transients in the music.
So I raised the rails to 50 volts and it was much better.
So a more powerful amp is better for transients.
Having said that not much point buying a 10kW amp for 10 watts of power.
I think it ran off about 20 volt rails.
I found the output quickly hit the rails with transients in the music.
So I raised the rails to 50 volts and it was much better.
So a more powerful amp is better for transients.
Having said that not much point buying a 10kW amp for 10 watts of power.
As an aside, although it is rarely done, it is easy to add a LED to a main amplifier with negative feedback and let that LED light up for a second after clipping, slewing, current limiting or anything else that makes the output signal differ substantially from what it's supposed to be. Just monitor the error signal and whenever it is larger than normal, trigger a monostable multivibrator that turns on the LED for a second. That way you will see immediately whether musical peaks drive your amp into clipping, slewing, current limiting or any other kind of gross distortion. I have a DIY two times 20 W into 8 ohm amplifier with such a LED, it almost never turns on.
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Way too many variables for such a comparison but my best sounding amplifier is class ABC and I would recommend it as optimal for multi driver modern speakers that can benefit from the power and the finesse whereas some very sensitive speakers require so little power that they don’t allow that amplifier to stretch its legs. super sensitive speakers sometimes better suited to a low power Class A amplifier, perhaps with slightly higher output impedance depending on the speaker design.
There may be amplifier designs that are suited to a wide range of speaker types (e.g. Class A push pull) with high and low sensitivity, but I think it’s better to have lots of amplifiers because that’s why we’re in this hobby
There may be amplifier designs that are suited to a wide range of speaker types (e.g. Class A push pull) with high and low sensitivity, but I think it’s better to have lots of amplifiers because that’s why we’re in this hobby
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Ok, then it is only the output impedance that matters when it comes to the two amplifiers abillity to control the load given the senario I have described, I'm for sure not knowledgeable enough in these matters to go with my gut feeling.
Please clarify (again) how to calculate the dampingfactor (DF) by using the specified output impedance of the amplifiers (30 & 60 mOhm) and the nominal impedance of the load (8Ohm), I do not belive I understood this the last time, is it 8/0,03? (=267) and that anything above 20 will sufice?
Damping Factor = Load Impedance / Closed Loop Output Impedance
Closed Loop Output Impedence = Open Loop Output Impedance / Feedback Factor
Feedback Factor = Open Loop Amplification / Closed Loop Amplification.
In short:
DF = (Ao * ZL) / Acl * Zoo)
Frequency, load, powersupply, topology and what not dependent.
It's an indicator, not a law.
Thank you MarsBravo, I need to dig in bit further to understand all of these terms, for instance the closed and open loop ouput impedance, I would guess it refers to if a load (or speaker) is connected to the output or not, but I will find out.
You are right jan.didden, it is not "only" the output impedance, but it has been voiced so many times this far so I understand it is one of the important factors, along with peak current output capabillity and more, I hope to comprise a sort of list of what mainly influences load control, I may not suceed but I try, if nothing else I hope gain some more insight.
The reson for trying to understand this is that I was curious if there are any published specs that can hint about which of the two referenced amplifiers would be more likley to have a better load control, and by that provide a better expirience in terms of sound quality for the user case I have mentioned.
You are right jan.didden, it is not "only" the output impedance, but it has been voiced so many times this far so I understand it is one of the important factors, along with peak current output capabillity and more, I hope to comprise a sort of list of what mainly influences load control, I may not suceed but I try, if nothing else I hope gain some more insight.
The reson for trying to understand this is that I was curious if there are any published specs that can hint about which of the two referenced amplifiers would be more likley to have a better load control, and by that provide a better expirience in terms of sound quality for the user case I have mentioned.
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Most amplifiers have a 'control' unit, called the feedback. Consider your temperature in your house which can be controlled with a simple box on a wall.
That's the input of the 'heat-amplifer', but as this amplifier draws energy from the power source, you want the desired setting asap. And no overshoot either.
The regulating controlling section 'looks to the desired value (input) and actual temperature in your room (output). As long as there is difference, heat is pumped into the house.
Now you like fresh air also, so you have this window wide open (load).
If your heat generator (amplifier) has lots of radiators and a swift pipesystem (endstage and open loop output impedance), it is well suited to get and keep your room at temperature. And by the action of the controlling section, it appears as if this even more swift is set then the fire, pipes and radiators can realise. This 'feedback factor' makes your central heating more efficient.
A smaller heating system with less radiators and smaller pipes will almost run crazy to keep you from burning or freezing (oscillation!). Even if there's more 'control power' designed in the smaller system!
So, more variables are in game and such an indicator as 'damping factor' is nothing more than dividing open windows by the amount of controlled radiators.
As a rule of thump one might say that an amplifier with moderate feedback (and hence no so very low output impedance and thus a not so impressive DF) still is to prefer if this amp is 'well equipped'.
You can pimp a small amp with extreme feedback and a infinite DF, but when the coil moves (either in a tone-arm or a voicecoil), it proves there is no real 'space' and 'breath' left in your living.
That's the input of the 'heat-amplifer', but as this amplifier draws energy from the power source, you want the desired setting asap. And no overshoot either.
The regulating controlling section 'looks to the desired value (input) and actual temperature in your room (output). As long as there is difference, heat is pumped into the house.
Now you like fresh air also, so you have this window wide open (load).
If your heat generator (amplifier) has lots of radiators and a swift pipesystem (endstage and open loop output impedance), it is well suited to get and keep your room at temperature. And by the action of the controlling section, it appears as if this even more swift is set then the fire, pipes and radiators can realise. This 'feedback factor' makes your central heating more efficient.
A smaller heating system with less radiators and smaller pipes will almost run crazy to keep you from burning or freezing (oscillation!). Even if there's more 'control power' designed in the smaller system!
So, more variables are in game and such an indicator as 'damping factor' is nothing more than dividing open windows by the amount of controlled radiators.
As a rule of thump one might say that an amplifier with moderate feedback (and hence no so very low output impedance and thus a not so impressive DF) still is to prefer if this amp is 'well equipped'.
You can pimp a small amp with extreme feedback and a infinite DF, but when the coil moves (either in a tone-arm or a voicecoil), it proves there is no real 'space' and 'breath' left in your living.
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Open/Closed loop is not related to the load being connected or not.
...
Maybe as a refresher, have a look at some basic concepts, as nicely presented here:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/systems/negative-feedback.html
Hope this helps getting started.
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