I built a Millett Hybrid Max headphone amp about a decade ago and used a bunch of Black Gate caps. It's been a great amp but I'm ready to move on to other things...I just built the Whammy, and may also build the NuTube headphone amp.
Is there any reason not to desolder the Black Gates from my old amp and use them in new projects? They still function fine, apparently, and regardless of the hype I think they sound great. I know electrolytics can dry up, but I also have a 40-year-old Yamaha receiver that still works great, so I take that with a grain of salt.
Is there any reason not to desolder the Black Gates from my old amp and use them in new projects? They still function fine, apparently, and regardless of the hype I think they sound great. I know electrolytics can dry up, but I also have a 40-year-old Yamaha receiver that still works great, so I take that with a grain of salt.
Black Gates were advertised by Jelmax to have a lifespan five times that of ordinary electrolytic capacitors. The trouble is, which ordinary electrolytics? Ones rated 500Hrs@85ºC or 20,000Hrs@125ºC.
It might be best to read and follow Illinois Capacitor's advice in the linked sheet. (Some years ago, an engineer at Cornell Dubilier gave me exactly the same numbers and advice on the phone so it probably covers most makes well enough. (Or he was just reading me the sheet from Illinois : )
It might be best to read and follow Illinois Capacitor's advice in the linked sheet. (Some years ago, an engineer at Cornell Dubilier gave me exactly the same numbers and advice on the phone so it probably covers most makes well enough. (Or he was just reading me the sheet from Illinois : )
Agree and add: just buy normal quality electrolytics from a major supplier (think Mouser and such).
I trust fresh modern ones way more than 10y.o. ones, pulled from somewhere else, subjectb to soldering - desoldering - pulling - resoldering plus the undeniable extra 10 y.o. age.
What "advantage" could old ones offer against that is beyond me.
I trust fresh modern ones way more than 10y.o. ones, pulled from somewhere else, subjectb to soldering - desoldering - pulling - resoldering plus the undeniable extra 10 y.o. age.
What "advantage" could old ones offer against that is beyond me.
Thank you, based on that PDF, my parts should still be well within their lifespan. The amp was not used excessively or left to sit for long periods. I think the Black Gate caps could have thousands of hours left in them, at the very least (if they do actually last longer than regular caps).
I buy "normal" parts all the time, especially with guitar pedal builds. Panasonic FC, FM or FR caps are great and cheap. But I have my reasons for preferring "audio" caps in certain applications. With the Millett amp, I socketed the electrolytics and auditioned 3 or 4 different types. They sounded different, and it wasn't always subtle, and yes, Black Gates were a clear preference. Were they worth paying many times the cost of cheaper caps? That's a personal judgment, but I felt it was worth it.
As for what the advantage is, it's the same advantage as 10 years ago. I doubt soldering/desoldering, if done competently (about 1 second of heat), does much of anything to big electrolytic caps. They're built to handle a certain amount of that, probably well in excess of what they typically experience. They generally don't even feel warm to the touch after soldering, unlike smaller components.
It's clearly worth trying. If results aren't good, then whatever, alternatives are cheap and accessible.
I buy "normal" parts all the time, especially with guitar pedal builds. Panasonic FC, FM or FR caps are great and cheap. But I have my reasons for preferring "audio" caps in certain applications. With the Millett amp, I socketed the electrolytics and auditioned 3 or 4 different types. They sounded different, and it wasn't always subtle, and yes, Black Gates were a clear preference. Were they worth paying many times the cost of cheaper caps? That's a personal judgment, but I felt it was worth it.
As for what the advantage is, it's the same advantage as 10 years ago. I doubt soldering/desoldering, if done competently (about 1 second of heat), does much of anything to big electrolytic caps. They're built to handle a certain amount of that, probably well in excess of what they typically experience. They generally don't even feel warm to the touch after soldering, unlike smaller components.
It's clearly worth trying. If results aren't good, then whatever, alternatives are cheap and accessible.
Well, in some applications, if compared, the Black Gates did sound noticeably different from a typical aluminum electrolytic equivalent and the difference could easily be perceived as being better. I can understand the attachment.
It may only be misguided imagination on my part but I believe it was the fact of too many middlemen and added predatory pricing that kept them in the boutiquey margins and prevented them from becoming more generally accepted as a better capacitor and also of course eventually led to their production being discontinued. If they had been priced on a par with other brands, or even perhaps up to twice the price, and sold through less "exclusive" channels they'd still be made now.
Years ago when blackgates were still made, i used to find a high percentage failure rate. I'd get an amp or preamp in for repair, and if it had BG caps, that was usually the cause. Failures were highest when voltages were within spec but close to the limits.
I also found from a sound quality aspect, no better than a quality Panasonic or Nichicon.
Don't waste time on the old, buy new caps.
I also found from a sound quality aspect, no better than a quality Panasonic or Nichicon.
Don't waste time on the old, buy new caps.
There's no doubt in my mind there's a difference which I believe is better. I can understand people thinking the difference is too small to be worth the extra cash. But those who insist there's no difference, I don't know what to say. Our ears apparently work very differently.
Audio Note is working with Rubycon to create a new generation of Black Gate (under the Audio Note brand name) using the same tech and materials, with help from some of the same people who designed the originals. Based on what I've read from them, their cost was not just predatory pricing. Apart from using an unusual electrolyte and foil, the paper in Black Gates is "graphite impregnated" which is thought to be the key in what many consider their superior sound. And apparently that process is very expensive and difficult to achieve.
They're already selling a series called "Kaisei" (available at Parts Connexion) which is apparently the exact same as Black Gates but without the graphite paper.
I tested Hybrid capacitors, and their sound was surprised me.
Panasonic EEVZA(ZA) and ZE has nice clear sound and wide depth feelings.
Hybrid caps has similar structure of Black Gate.
But ZA has uniformally electric conduct layer by impregnated conductive polymer.
I think that it is good altanateives of Black Gate.
Panasonic EEVZA(ZA) and ZE has nice clear sound and wide depth feelings.
Hybrid caps has similar structure of Black Gate.
But ZA has uniformally electric conduct layer by impregnated conductive polymer.
I think that it is good altanateives of Black Gate.
Never had a defective one and even after all these years they measure like new. It is just my thoughts that tell to replace them but it really is unneccessary.
Which values do you need? I still have them in stock in quite some values.
Which values do you need? I still have them in stock in quite some values.
Black Gates are/were a scam. If coupling caps just replace with Nichicon Muse ES. Otherwise, there are LOTS of better caps.
Why do you think Rubycon published very minimal specs and then discontinued them? They could not convince real industries to buy them, because they had no real advantages.
Why do you think Rubycon published very minimal specs and then discontinued them? They could not convince real industries to buy them, because they had no real advantages.
You probably never tried them?! Rubycon has nothing to do with BG. They were produced by Rubycon for Jelmax. If BG really were a scam it is surprising to see so many satisfied customers.
Even now some manufacturers are trying to find out what made BG perform as they do.
They were discontinued as Rubycon needed the equipment themselves for producing ultra low ESR caps. BG was produced in batches and relatively low numbers. BG are also far from ROHS... which did not really help.
Even now some manufacturers are trying to find out what made BG perform as they do.
They were discontinued as Rubycon needed the equipment themselves for producing ultra low ESR caps. BG was produced in batches and relatively low numbers. BG are also far from ROHS... which did not really help.
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I've tried them, the red NX HI-Q and the regular black ones. They are BS, in my opinion.
What evidence do you have that anyone in the real world cares even a little about some cap that might have been better than 1990 generic Al electrolytics but is now ancient history?
There can be opinions in a free world. Nevertheless it is strange and rare to read such a negative comment about NX-HiQ. In my tests they were better than film caps. But enough of this as there are enough threads about BG.
They still measure very very good. Better than many modern ultra low ESR caps. I would not call it evidence as I am no scientist but their performance is quite good to say the least.
They still measure very very good. Better than many modern ultra low ESR caps. I would not call it evidence as I am no scientist but their performance is quite good to say the least.
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They did not sound any better to me than Muse ES.
To the original poster, I would replace them with new caps because they should be subject to the same wear mechanisms that all regular Al electrolytic caps are. I'm sure they will work just fine, however.
Do you have a link to the measurements? I'd never come across any before.
Mmmm, maybe because actual specs can be measured 😱 and proven/disproven? 😎
That kills all the fun 🙁
Seriously, IF Rubycon knew a better way to make Capacitors, they would just use it, why keep it hidden?
And given they make a billion trillion gazillion caps a year, why would they hide the "better way" , keep it unused, and "activate" it only for a very minor Customer who only asks for, best case, a few thousand a year?
It makes absolutey NO sense.
Now if such a minor customer orders a few thousand but with a custom sleeve so they can claim they are "different/special" then that makes way more Economic sense, printing on a tube of heat shrink plastic film is CHEAP and EASY.
But ... but ... are they junk? 😕
No, no way at all, Rubycon know their sh*t , can and do make excellent capacitors ... for many customers, including (I presume) Black Gate and many other top line sellers.
But ... maybe Black Gate discovered a better way to make capacitors and they gave the blueprints to Rubycon? Or a secret sauce process?
REALLY? do you think a few guys working at home or in a small Lab can be miles ahead from ... RUBYCON? ... 🙄
Think again.
My view is they contacted Rubycon saying: "we want to sell a *good* product, give us the best you can, we can pay some extra money for it".
No more, no less.
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Maybe scam is the wrong word. Overhyped and now overpriced better, but yes, we agree, I think.
@JMFahey: these capacitors were produced by Rubycon for Jelmax. So one can not expect Rubycon to produce datasheets and/or information to end customers. Jelmax were a very small company and writing datasheets was not their core business 😀 but their products were top notch.
One can put as many views and opinions as one likes but it does not take away the fact that these capacitors still are among the best despite their age. This is in measurements and soundwise. Apparently there are modern copies made which proves Jelmax right.
One can put as many views and opinions as one likes but it does not take away the fact that these capacitors still are among the best despite their age. This is in measurements and soundwise. Apparently there are modern copies made which proves Jelmax right.
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