We have come a long way since dat players, fortunately.
However, don't know where to advise you to go to hear a very low distortion system. Maybe if we had your location, somebody reading along might have a suggestion for a place in your area.
I would like to say that digital has kept getting better and better. At the moment, I would suggest trying to find someone with a T&A DAC8 DSD dac fed from upsampled DSD from HQplayer. That into a clean power amp such as Benchmark AHB2, and into some good professional mixing/mastering speakers would probably be good (remove any grille cloths to start with, if applicable, they may tend to have a muffling effect which you can check by putting them back on). My own preference is for the tight time response of sealed speakers, but others may differ. Unfortunately for those with very sensitive hearing who like to listen in the near field I would suggest avoiding powered speakers of any type to start with, except maybe for subwoofers. Once you see what a good dac and power amp can do, you would likely then be in a better position to try powered speakers (with or without DSP) and see if you would find them acceptable for you. If acceptable, there are some benefits from DSP, but IMHO, it takes a good dac and a good power amp for each speaker driver. It can get very expensive to do it the way I think I would prefer. On the other hand, if you don't hear the distortion effects of lower cost approaches, then the ability to tune frequency response and crossovers can be very nice.
One warning, probably best to start listening sessions at low volume levels and try to check for the smallest distortion effects and other anomalies you might be able to hear first. Once you start turning up the level, your hearing sensitivity may be diminshed for a period of time. For me, it doesn't take much loud-ish sound exposure to affect my ability to hear normally for the rest of the day and even through the next day (however I have tinnitus which gets aggravated, maybe not a problem for others).
I like to walk around the room up close in front of each speaker and back farther to listen to the room. Walk across in front to listen for dispersion and beaming, etc.
About all I can think of to suggest at the moment. Sorry if it was too long a post for some.
I went to a concert of Gamelan orchestra music many years ago. I will never forget the unique sound, the tunings, and the rhythmic harmonies. Particularly the microtonal, often dissonant sounding tunings. A sound that could easily travel through thick humid air and still keep its volume and clarity.
Sometimes I wonder if many of what appear to be deficiencies in loudspeaker (and possibly amp) design are due to an unconscious influence of western even temperament tuning, which is an uncomfortable compromise we have become accustomed to.
Perhaps this why Gamelan music is so difficult to reproduce.
Just thoughts ToS
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You meant that we are old people with limited hearing? But the younger generation do not have interest with hifi?
That famous online listening test had hundreds of participants. I think they are representing audio enthusiasts in the world? Just trying to make a deduction here 😀
I meant i have surpassed my thresholds with quality aspects related to speaker design. One of my reference speakers is a minimum phase, btw.
Good stuff thanks🙂
Old enough to remember petting the original nipper at a Victrola demonstration?😀
By three different animals...... one integrated reciever with dsp and digital everything (Yamaha rn-803) , one totally analog integrated (parasound Hint), and a 60wpc amp (sonamp 260)
They each sound quite different
Zip code 32456 FL.....I don’t think there’s much around here? But open for suggestions.
There seems to be mixed impressions of upsampling.....I suppose as with anything if it’s done right it’s good?
And yes I’m seriously considering trying all out dsp in a seperate system setup(side by side)........omg, will that make me one of then thar audiophilistines?😱
Edit: I’m pretty sure the dbx driverack pa2 I’ve been looking has one dac chip per channel (6) good enough for 3way/2way+sub
I started out with "ABX or other DBT". No backtracking.
According to my shrink I have chronic depression and most likely a form of autism, anxiety disorder too. All that is fine with me. it never really was an issue.
However, that now paranaoia is added to this list makes me look over my shoulder.
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Yes. Upsampling of PCM followed by conversion to high sample rate DSD, seems to be the thing. And, HQplayer seems to be the software of preference for that at the moment. It can sound very good indeed, but requires a powerful computer to perform at its best.
I meant, have you compared your test results with younger (20's) listeners? If so, how do you know their age?
Have you seen the square wave measurement at the output terminals of your existing amp/s and in front of speaker driver/s? If not, you should compare the two. That will let you see where to put your effort in improvement.
You didn't listen at same volume level, right?
The Yamaha liked less input voltage, the parasound needed more (I can’t find the notes) but yes tested at the same listening level 95db at lp.
The characters are night and day different between the yammie and parasound...
Yammie is quick and nimble with more stage depth.
parasound is sluggish and smooth with more stage width
Sonance is relegated to subwoofer duty because the top is so grainy and harsh but bottom end control is exemplary and it’s rated for a 2 ohm load
I assume a lot of the differences are in the preamp section (analog in from outboard dac)and the sonance just the way it is.
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You didn't level match.
I believe it. Would you believe that your yammie can sound different too when listened at 2 different sessions? All you have to do is rotate the volume knob between the sessions.
If by level match you mean setting the amp gain then no.....they are integrated.
If you meant input level from source then yes the parasound required a little more input I think it was like 4 Lufs less .....set by ear (I know you love that!)
I really don’t know what you mean by rotating the volume knob between sessions? There is no place up or down in volume that they sound remotely close to the same.
It fixes one primary problem which fixes a bunch of dependencies.
Locally yes it is well proven, and there is a rock/blues band in Germany that are getting enqueuing questions about their sound from both sides of 'the pond'. At this stage it is not available, sorry but you are welcome to PM me for some quick cheap and easy system improvements.
Acoustic/vibrational feedback of amps and line level stages is surprisingly important, as is microphonics of heatsink fins.
Dan.
Oh my, that's yet another magic term I haven't heard of. Looking online, it's a term used by the "EBU R 128" standard, and looks a lot like dBFS, which could be peak, average, RMS or maybe even something else. LUFS is some sort of RMS value, but as it's an absolute level, you wouldn't say something is "4 LUFS less" that something else, but maybe 4 LU ("Loudness Units") less or maybe just 4 dB less.
If they sound that different, at least one of them must be broken!
I have to be blind or else I won't be able to see?
Sorry, couldn't help but saying that. 😀
Bias? Is that what this is about? Why should I have a problem with bias? That just sounds like a race to the bottom, like good judgement has no value, and everybody must be biased? I don't see it that way. I don't have a problem with bias, but if others have, so be it. But why should I? I am just fine, thank you.
Like what I said about digital playback, it is only in recent times I have heard it sound great - and also maybe thinking that most people have not yet, but hopefully they will. I don't need ABX or blind testing to tell me that.
I am probably biased towards analog when I said that digital just didn't cut it. Now that I feel that it does (or at least I know that it can), did my bias get in the way? Nope. And what about all those folks that said digital was perfect when I knew for a fact it was not? My bias has not proved to be a problem at all, my good judgement has survived - and oh, I don't give a brass razoo how much equipment costs, I am so way beyond that.
So how could ABX have benefited me? Actually, it did not.
Yes, Double-Blind-Testing has its place, but not as an universal dogma. Use when it is necessary and I have no problem with that. It can be a great tool. But just not for everything.
Oh, I have been involved in blind tests and I have got to say, they are so boring - and a bored person making good judgements is rather low percentage, IMHO. If we could make it less painful, I wouldn't mind so much. 😀
Sorry, couldn't help but saying that. 😀
Bias? Is that what this is about? Why should I have a problem with bias? That just sounds like a race to the bottom, like good judgement has no value, and everybody must be biased? I don't see it that way. I don't have a problem with bias, but if others have, so be it. But why should I? I am just fine, thank you.
Like what I said about digital playback, it is only in recent times I have heard it sound great - and also maybe thinking that most people have not yet, but hopefully they will. I don't need ABX or blind testing to tell me that.
I am probably biased towards analog when I said that digital just didn't cut it. Now that I feel that it does (or at least I know that it can), did my bias get in the way? Nope. And what about all those folks that said digital was perfect when I knew for a fact it was not? My bias has not proved to be a problem at all, my good judgement has survived - and oh, I don't give a brass razoo how much equipment costs, I am so way beyond that.
So how could ABX have benefited me? Actually, it did not.
Yes, Double-Blind-Testing has its place, but not as an universal dogma. Use when it is necessary and I have no problem with that. It can be a great tool. But just not for everything.
Oh, I have been involved in blind tests and I have got to say, they are so boring - and a bored person making good judgements is rather low percentage, IMHO. If we could make it less painful, I wouldn't mind so much. 😀
I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream. That’s all that comes to mind after reading your prose.
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You must be talking about extremely poorly designed amps, right? Maybe some brands adored by audiophiles?
No. But i think many online participants are young because psychologically they like to show off and to have fun. I stopped joining local shootouts when i became old so i haven't had the chance to compare my listening skill with younger generation (i will sooner or later). But once in a while i found that i still have the 'skill' i had when i was young, even more. The point is, listening skill is not at all about how far you can hear high frequencies. Beside talent, experience and knowledge is important, so by the time the younger generation have equal experience and knowledge, they will be older than i am now 😀
Sure, but i don't understand about comparing the two (add:
i think i understand now). I mentioned that i have a minimum phase reference speaker was because i thought you were interested with system's impulse/step responses (didn't you mention 'transient response' before?). But I think you understand that may be nobody can correlate this to perception (Stereophile didn't see a correlation).
For me, once i understand how things work, i address issues straight from their basic elements. What i mean is i don't need anymore to see overshoots from sqwave output at every circuit junctions. I don't calculate PM/GM. I don't have to input impulse response into my speaker as i know that by making it a minimum phase design i can predict the result.
No, not at all. Bob has mentioned the characteristics of the amps. In amp design there are trade offs that you can't avoid. A simplified analogy is by looking at a MOSFET. The trans conductance of a transistor is highly responsible with one quality aspect. The capacitance of a transistor is highly responsible with another quality aspect. BUT if you seek a high transconductance device, you cannot get low capacitance device. So this is a trade off where you have to decide how much you need for each. No right or wrong.
Dan, what is the typical frequency of the microphonics of the heatsink?
PMA (i think) has mentioned about grounding the heatsink because of capacitance effect of floating heatsink.
Could you please explain in simpler words? (i.e. 'western even temperament')
@ vacuphile,
I'd still be very interested in your point of view wrt the questions I've posted here:
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
I'd still be very interested in your point of view wrt the questions I've posted here:
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Thanks, Scott. I can see the relationship with gamelan, things ToS was speaking about. Consonant and dissonant is related with the spacing of tones. Guitar is a basic example. If you use fret to one guitar, the tone will be sharper (higher pitch) and if you combine the sound with unfretted guitar (without adjustment), the sound could be strange (non harmonious).
Some instruments just have different harmonics. Gamelan could be one. So if these instruments should be played together with other common western instruments in an orchestra, then digitally edited, may be there will be issues (just prediction). But such instruments are best played without other modern instruments (such as in our traditional gamelan).
But yes, i think you're right about amp and speaker.
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