It all to funny ….life an time in Audio..
Back in the 1980....I was in the Audio biz...we sold Nelson Pass & Bob carver amps an preamps...at the shop.
I ask them both About the wire in there Products..That I found at time... sound to just about bad as you could get....My friend an I just startded listen to different wire an caps, Interconnect cabels ..
They both said it made No different to the sound!..... Not needed!....all measured the same...
To day they say different..... about so called good wire they use in there products..
An The Audiophile Grade Quality cabels to be used with there equipment.
We know to day all thing make a different to the sound!
An yes from the past... I too have some of my MK121 interfaces set up so thay can be bi-wired...
But to day I have found that if one re-work with new parts an a new 500meg bias feeder res…. an gets a good 5k bias on the Acoustat panels....one amp sounds as good if not better...but I also think all ESL sound better when driven with tubes...
My friend went on to make AC line Conditioner...to day I still use them in my audio setups....they all have snubber in them!
Thanks, Keep up the good work.. of any an all ways of getting better sound out of ESL speakers.
As I have said for minny years ...No bias, No sound from ESL speakers
All just one mans finding after owning Minny Acoustats speakers
Back in the 1980....I was in the Audio biz...we sold Nelson Pass & Bob carver amps an preamps...at the shop.
I ask them both About the wire in there Products..That I found at time... sound to just about bad as you could get....My friend an I just startded listen to different wire an caps, Interconnect cabels ..
They both said it made No different to the sound!..... Not needed!....all measured the same...
To day they say different..... about so called good wire they use in there products..
An The Audiophile Grade Quality cabels to be used with there equipment.
We know to day all thing make a different to the sound!
An yes from the past... I too have some of my MK121 interfaces set up so thay can be bi-wired...
But to day I have found that if one re-work with new parts an a new 500meg bias feeder res…. an gets a good 5k bias on the Acoustat panels....one amp sounds as good if not better...but I also think all ESL sound better when driven with tubes...
My friend went on to make AC line Conditioner...to day I still use them in my audio setups....they all have snubber in them!
Thanks, Keep up the good work.. of any an all ways of getting better sound out of ESL speakers.
As I have said for minny years ...No bias, No sound from ESL speakers
All just one mans finding after owning Minny Acoustats speakers
Yes many different avenues to good sound , and good to share journey, as you have done.
I also have a very big, well integrated horn system, so different to the stats, but I love them both.
I also have a very big, well integrated horn system, so different to the stats, but I love them both.
Great news, one of the most trusted authorities on DIY projects - Rod Elliott - has just published a long and documented article on his extensive research into snubbers for audio gear, 2019. He says it is tricky doing the research because the test rig exaggerates "the problem" to be cured (if any) beyond the normal operating environment.
Snubbers For PSUs
Here's his opinion:
"As with so many things in audio, there is always a fringe group that thinks (or even insists) that things that are completely inaudible somehow manage to ruin the sound, and that all manner of unnecessary and often expensive solutions are required for the 'perfect sound'. Most regular readers will be well aware that I consider this to be snake-oil, because if you can't hear or measure any 'interference', then quite obviously it isn't a problem."
And,
"Don't expect the snubber to make the slightest difference to the audio, because it almost certainly will do no such thing."
About mid-way he talks about testing, but "not with some ill-conceived "tester"" gizmo. Is he referring to the link in this thread? In any case, Elliott says there's no such thing as tuning the snubber to anything happening upstream and he just names a value of a cap and series resistor as doing all the snubbing you'd want (read the article to find out the values he presents).
Elliott's thinks a snubber could be helpful and could do no harm with a poorly designed switching power supply but that the effects would be inaudible. Likewise possibly for RF gear like TVs.
B.
Snubbers For PSUs
Here's his opinion:
"As with so many things in audio, there is always a fringe group that thinks (or even insists) that things that are completely inaudible somehow manage to ruin the sound, and that all manner of unnecessary and often expensive solutions are required for the 'perfect sound'. Most regular readers will be well aware that I consider this to be snake-oil, because if you can't hear or measure any 'interference', then quite obviously it isn't a problem."
And,
"Don't expect the snubber to make the slightest difference to the audio, because it almost certainly will do no such thing."
About mid-way he talks about testing, but "not with some ill-conceived "tester"" gizmo. Is he referring to the link in this thread? In any case, Elliott says there's no such thing as tuning the snubber to anything happening upstream and he just names a value of a cap and series resistor as doing all the snubbing you'd want (read the article to find out the values he presents).
Elliott's thinks a snubber could be helpful and could do no harm with a poorly designed switching power supply but that the effects would be inaudible. Likewise possibly for RF gear like TVs.
B.
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I have been using a 0.01uF 6KV capacitor on the end of the voltage multiplier *before* the 500Mohm resistor. Did you install your capacitor there or after the resistor? Have you tried different values and found 0.022uF to work better than a smaller value?
Take care,
Doug
I don't recommend adding any capacitors to the bias supply, but if you must, please add it before the 500 M-ohm out-feed resistor. If you add it after the 500-Mohm, then you are violating the constant-charge principal upon which the speaker was designed (the same can be said of all properly designed ESLs). Adding the capacitor after the resistor will change the operation from constant-charge to constant-voltage, which will increase distortion, as well as subjecting the user to potentially lethal voltage long after the speaker is de-energized.
To day with your snubber in my 5k out bourd ajustabl Acoustat bias...i use for quick testng of panels
I put this on my Martin logan CLS panels Wow...i got say this sound vary good...biger sound stages vary sweet tone too the sound ...here i can hear the affect much better on these unforgiving panels.....
thanks, great tweak well worth trying….keep them coming
I put this on my Martin logan CLS panels Wow...i got say this sound vary good...biger sound stages vary sweet tone too the sound ...here i can hear the affect much better on these unforgiving panels.....
thanks, great tweak well worth trying….keep them coming
Yes exactly, this was my understanding as well, it should be before the 500Mohm resistor, not after.
And as has been mentioned above, adding a capacitor to the output of the bias supply in either position increases high voltage storage capacity of the power supply and the risk of a very dangerous or lethal electrical shock. I don't recommend this mod unless you are very sure of what you are doing and are taking appropriate precautions.
The snubber circuit, on the other hand, is located before the diode multiplier and has no effect on the high voltage storage capacity or electrical shock hazard.
Take care,
Doug
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Are you using the original Acoustat 750 volt transformer in this set-up? If you are using any other high voltage transformer then the snubber is most likely not ideal. The correct snubber values must be determined using Quasimodo for the actual transformer type that you are using or it will not be optimised.
Take care,
Doug
I read the article, and i pretty much go along with his thinking. As i said, ive used snubbers on preamps and power amps, with nil advantage, and Rod bases his article on snubbers in these devices.
The acoustat bias supply is a different application, and whether you can get your narrow mind around it or not, the snubber does do something quite positive here.
It shouldn't, but it does.
Audio, like life isnt all black and white, theres still some mysteries we dont understand.
Notwithstanding that there is a lot of snakeoil out there that can make one a little , or a lot skeptical, im certainly very wary of most, but i do believe what i can confirm with my own ears.
Its two of the 750V stock transfourmers….these bias can be set from 2.5k up to 5k
I read your post, I got your info on the parts..
thanks
I read your post, I got your info on the parts..
thanks
Solipsism, a very comforting refuge.
And while a person can always claim the Golden Ear high ground, that kind of anti-intellectual nonsense just doesn't fly at DIYaudio. Sorry.
Just for the record, Elliott said that switching power supplies might just introduce some crap into the DC or into the air, if poorly designed. I don't think they existed when your speakers were born and may not be found in the gear some folks are talking about here. Certainly not in doubler-ladder bias supplies.
B.
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Switching supplies have been around for a LONG time, don't forget every CRT tv has its HV generated via a switching supply.
I made a switching supply for my DIY ESL's decades ago that switched at very high frequencies and was quite quiet from an RF standpoint. It was also super quiet ele trically because the caps were filtering 24KHz and not rectified 60Hz. It also used a CW voltage multiplier to get my high bias voltages. Worked really well...
But all this talk about bias supplies and cleanness seems a bit misguided. Any ESL that is operating in constant charge mode should be very highly decoupled from the bias supply. For example the Quad 63's has an air gap between the power supply and the panels that only connects for a tiny fraction of a second every 30 seconds or so. Can't get much more isolated than that.
Now if the supply is radiating crap around to other components or back down the power line, that is an issue.
I made a switching supply for my DIY ESL's decades ago that switched at very high frequencies and was quite quiet from an RF standpoint. It was also super quiet ele trically because the caps were filtering 24KHz and not rectified 60Hz. It also used a CW voltage multiplier to get my high bias voltages. Worked really well...
But all this talk about bias supplies and cleanness seems a bit misguided. Any ESL that is operating in constant charge mode should be very highly decoupled from the bias supply. For example the Quad 63's has an air gap between the power supply and the panels that only connects for a tiny fraction of a second every 30 seconds or so. Can't get much more isolated than that.
Now if the supply is radiating crap around to other components or back down the power line, that is an issue.
Your attitude is interesting, quite bitter behind a facade of conservatism .
As the OP said, your type best ignored.
The Acoustat power transformer is in very close proximity to the audio transformers in the square type interfaces, particularly the high end transformer.
Take care,
Doug
The Rod Elliot article was already discussed in the Quasimodo thread, I suggest you direct your unhappiness there.
Take care,
Doug
With 1629 posts just in the main Quasimodo thread, isn't your bluff just a bit disingenuous?
I am not the least bit unhappy usually - not with 28 kids and grandkids in my life (and all their birthdays on my computer calendar). But I get miffed at seeing weird claims about inaudible distortions that are not measurable by objective means posted at DIYaudio. And then defended by unwarranted nasty personal attacks.
B.
Supra do you have the cube shaped interfaces or the larger rectangular interfaces on your speakers?
Take care,
Doug
Take care,
Doug
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