What? No way, stick will single speaker (I mean "full range" mono) all the problems just disappear..
Anything can be the weakest link if messed up. In today's audio electronics, one has to put effort into it to mess up in the link prior to speaker terminal.
In hi-fi, they should be designed to sound accurate to the source.
I'm glad I didn't hold my breath when waiting for his answer to lots of sound we can hear which cannot be measured.
My grand mother used to say:" An amp will never be better than its PSU."
She used to say, too: "Satisfaction of oneself is the beginning of wisdom." (key word is "beginning").
PS: She died with great dignity, but I am sure that at this moment she had nothing to care of dignity or wisdom ;-)
I see what you are saying now. I am talking about the step (and hence the impulse response) of the system being identical using t-line or lumped L/C analysis for a short line. The dissipation in the line in this case is a small fraction of the power delivered to the load. I still hold that the dissipation in the line is not an inherent property of the system but a reality of a practical implementation i.e. there is no physical law that says a lossless line can not exist.
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That's opposite of my opinion/finding.
There is misunderstanding here, about the meaning and interpretation of 'accurate' or 'true to the source'. What is your criteria of accurate to the source? I don't do PM or GM analysis. I don't do square wave test etc. The load to the amp is not resistive and accuracy could be subjectively better determined from the final signal that enters the ears. An amp may have 100% similarity between its input and output, but the input may not be accurate (due to source loading) and the speaker output may be way off.
Preservation of all the cues that aid production of a believable image in the auditory cortex of the brain. Next question 🙂
A number of people seem not to understand that "interaural" means between two ears i.e it's the timing difference between the signal arriving at our two ears. So for those people who this is now a new revelation, don't think the head shadow is a complicating factor - that is why ITD is mainly in action for localization perception at low frequencies & ILD is mainly used at high frequencies - something like 1.3KHz is the frequency where localization by ITD becomes less reliable - 800Hz is the centre frequency for maximal ITD perception
And do you know what the full set of cues are which enable this? If not then you are saying accuracy is a "fictive" (I had to look this up) definition at the moment until such time as we know all these cues & can measure them in the reproduced signal
A simple test for seeing if the cables are affecting image.
1. Wire both speakers with same gauge #12 zip.
2. Connect both to one amp terminal.
3. Test for totally centered image between the speakers. if good proceed
4. Pull the zip apart on one speaker so that the conductors are at least an inch apart. this reduces capacitance, raises inductance, and raises Z.
5. Test for totally centered image. If the image is no longer totally centered, there is a difference to investigate. If it is totally centered, goto 6.
6. Parallel either 2, 3, or 4 zips to the cable that is not pulled apart. This drops L to 1/4, C rises by 4, Z drops by 4.
7. Test for totally centered image. If it is not perfectly centered, there is a difference to investigate.
If there is no audibly detected difference, you are done. Nothing to be seen here citizens, move along. you have just shown to yourself that you and your system are not sensitive to ITD based errors within the realm of what a wide range of cable parameters is capable of.
As for image shift, what you are counting on is this: much of the audio content humans will not be sensitive to ITD shift, but only amplitude. Since these cable changes are so small, there is no possibility that amplitude will be shifted. You can use the image created by the non shifting amplitude dependent content as a central fixed point on which to gauge if other content in the image has shifted. This eliminates the head in vice aspect, as you are trying to "measure" relative image location to a fixed acoustic source in space.
jn
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JN, I believe ScottJ was just commenting in general about "accuracy to the source" comment by Eventharmonics, not about your test for audibility of the ITD.
One aspect that might involve amplitude is that as the speaker is 'gradually' loaded until the full energy of the signal is reached, is this not, in effect causing a concomitant gradual build up to full signal amplitude? This takes place over such a short time that it is likely not perceivable in itself but I wonder how the sound envelope might be affected - the sound envelope being made up of the amplitude of all these signals (Temporal Fine Structure of the ENV)? Just shooting the breeze but ....
One aspect that might involve amplitude is that as the speaker is 'gradually' loaded until the full energy of the signal is reached, is this not, in effect causing a concomitant gradual build up to full signal amplitude? This takes place over such a short time that it is likely not perceivable in itself but I wonder how the sound envelope might be affected - the sound envelope being made up of the amplitude of all these signals (Temporal Fine Structure of the ENV)? Just shooting the breeze but ....
Yes, but I was too lazy to either start a new post, or go find where he asked if it were feasable to audibly test before we figure out how to do the electrical tests.
I suspect that a 10 uSec variation in the lower registers will not "register" in humans, as the waveform is just too slow. The signal amplitude buildup will be exactly as before, just time shifted about 10 uSec.
The only alternative I can think of is to have a third identical speaker perfectly centered where the mono image is, and switch back and forth between the center and the two sides. But my guess is that would probably require a level adjustment between having one and having two energized at the same time.. I like my idea more, as I am...as I said...lazy..😀
jn
This #12 zip cord that you speak of... Back in the RoW - what's the spec of it? 🙂
Also -- if a stereo image has been created in a studio with simple panning - ie level differences, is ITD relevant? Being lazy here and assuming someone knows, so I don't have to context switch from the mass of code I'm debugging in my short term RAM currently...
Also -- if a stereo image has been created in a studio with simple panning - ie level differences, is ITD relevant? Being lazy here and assuming someone knows, so I don't have to context switch from the mass of code I'm debugging in my short term RAM currently...
Concur. While the program ITD may not be exact for image placement, we are interpreting it nonetheless. So if we change the ITD at all, image should shift.
Which is better, who knows...but I'm not considering which is best, just a detection of a difference.
jn
Thanks, looks good at first glance. I would suggest maybe listening nearfield and as between the speakers as possible? Also make sure wires are equal lengths
Sure, I know you were just laying out the testing procedure you see best suits uncovering any audibility of your premise
But here's where I'm coming from on this - as I mentioned before ITD operates predominantly below ~1.3KHz so, in terms of audibility, we are mainly talking about lower registers in all of this. So how can this ITD be perceived at high frequencies?
I envisage that sound envelopes can have their shape affected by the changes in ITD of the carrier frequencies which make up the ENV (which can be HF). The ENV is a low frequency wave & changes in ITD or shape could result in changes in localization BUT ALSO in timbral character of the sound. So it might be worth considering not just localization tests?
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Vinyl character is easily inserted into digital sound, good for those who prefer vinyl sound, best of both worlds.
But then vinyl formulations sound different, which one to choose ?.
With wine choose what you can afford, treated wines taste way better than they should do for the price.
Alchemy, magic, physics ?.....who cares.
Dan.
Maybe JN has a very poor amplifier that interacts with zip cords. It all sounds like BS to me.
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