Hi everyone, would be great to get everyone’s thoughts on this.
What do you think is best for a live classic hardrock band. Best kick drum thud and bass guitar definition. Best SPL from 35hz to 100hz
THAM 18 or CUBO 18
Can only afford one per side for now, the THAM 18 is on my maximum size limit.
Driver will be Faital Pro 18PH1060
Will one of the 2 work better in large rooms and outdoors and project more, or are they both the same?
Or other suggestions along the same size / weight with High SPL.
Luke
What do you think is best for a live classic hardrock band. Best kick drum thud and bass guitar definition. Best SPL from 35hz to 100hz
THAM 18 or CUBO 18
Can only afford one per side for now, the THAM 18 is on my maximum size limit.
Driver will be Faital Pro 18PH1060
Will one of the 2 work better in large rooms and outdoors and project more, or are they both the same?
Or other suggestions along the same size / weight with High SPL.
Luke
(I accidentally previously simmed it with 18hp1030 and deleted that post) Here's an 18HP1060 comparison assuming CUBO 18 can be assumed to be ~ a BVR as with this grabbed model
THAM18 appears to be tuned a half octave lower
I simmed both the traditional fold and new fold vs a CUBO18 model
more gain can be had in THAM18's volume - but at the expense of low end extension
THAM18 appears to be tuned a half octave lower
I simmed both the traditional fold and new fold vs a CUBO18 model
more gain can be had in THAM18's volume - but at the expense of low end extension
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Well, everybody seemed to have their own idea based on loudness limits, type of venue way back when, but the guideline Altec gave me in '64 was ~flat from at least ~80-300 Hz and preferably out to > 1 kHz, rolling off at ~24 dB/octave, so tuning was ~56 Hz.
I measured a number of concerts at various in & out-door venues back in the '67-'94 era at ~ around the cinema's 2/3 audience distance from the stage and were 'all over the map' from an Elvis mid 80s to bouncing the meter off its 126 dB peak with one so loud at the last of a 1975 multiple band concert in the Road Atlanta racetrack infield that I had to get a good 1/4 mi. away to get it down to ~115 dB.
GM
I measured a number of concerts at various in & out-door venues back in the '67-'94 era - GM[/QUOTE]
Bloody brilliant, my bands an old school blues / classic hard rock band, along the lines of Jimi Hendrix , deep purple.
We use two 60s 100w Marshall stacks with 4x12”s for guitar, 300W HiWatt bass heads with 8x10” for Bass guitar, and a old school drum kick with 26” kick drum.. our stage level is pretty loud, it’s not over the top but it’s loud..
Put it this way, at 3FT infront of the drum kit in an average sized room, i read 108 to 112db on my SPL meter, just the drums alone. So I need a PA system that can outrun the stage levels.
I’m going for the RCF NX25A for tops just need subs. I wish I could hear the CUBO 18 and the THAM 18 so I could decide with my ears. But I’m going to have to rely on everyone’s opinion..
Although the hornsrep info is helpful, I don’t know how it translates into the real world and how they sound.
What would really help me is if someone who’s heard either or both says “ this one will be louder in the kick drum thud in your chest range” “ this one will rattle the walls even in large spaces “
If someone asked me what frequency make a kick drum thud in your chest, I would say between 65hz and 80hz.. but with my drummers current kick drum and my current subs I have to boost 35hz by a massive amount to get any kind of thud.. I’m not sure if that’s to do with the subs not moving enough air or if that’s just the frequency of this kick drum..
Some People say Cubo’s go lower than THAMs, yet in every sim I’ve seen it looks the opposite. Am I reading them wrong ?
Bloody brilliant, my bands an old school blues / classic hard rock band, along the lines of Jimi Hendrix , deep purple.
We use two 60s 100w Marshall stacks with 4x12”s for guitar, 300W HiWatt bass heads with 8x10” for Bass guitar, and a old school drum kick with 26” kick drum.. our stage level is pretty loud, it’s not over the top but it’s loud..
Put it this way, at 3FT infront of the drum kit in an average sized room, i read 108 to 112db on my SPL meter, just the drums alone. So I need a PA system that can outrun the stage levels.
I’m going for the RCF NX25A for tops just need subs. I wish I could hear the CUBO 18 and the THAM 18 so I could decide with my ears. But I’m going to have to rely on everyone’s opinion..
Although the hornsrep info is helpful, I don’t know how it translates into the real world and how they sound.
What would really help me is if someone who’s heard either or both says “ this one will be louder in the kick drum thud in your chest range” “ this one will rattle the walls even in large spaces “
If someone asked me what frequency make a kick drum thud in your chest, I would say between 65hz and 80hz.. but with my drummers current kick drum and my current subs I have to boost 35hz by a massive amount to get any kind of thud.. I’m not sure if that’s to do with the subs not moving enough air or if that’s just the frequency of this kick drum..
Some People say Cubo’s go lower than THAMs, yet in every sim I’ve seen it looks the opposite. Am I reading them wrong ?
here's a little kick box tuned to 67Hz (can't find a model for sim) - it might help to ask at Speakerplans about CUBO and THAM then for the resonator - planar type - at Facebook
you need good treble to get a sharp kick
Cubo or Tham? - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Bass A-Z) Public Group | Facebook
you need good treble to get a sharp kick
Cubo or Tham? - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Bass A-Z) Public Group | Facebook
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Thanks Freddie, i don’t think 67hz will Be low enough for me.. I plan on venturing into PA and sound guy hire for bands in the area, because theres nobody like that around here until you get into large line array rigs.
Ideally I would have 2 Double 18s either side but I simply can’t move cabs that big and most venues they wouldn’t fit either, so that’s why I thought a single horn loaded 18 would make up some of the SPL lost, while keeping the size as compact as can be..
I need a absolute minimum of 40hz, 30-35hz ideally.. in a box no bigger than the tham 18 give it take an inch or 2, and can be transported by one not very strong person.
The Cubo’s and THAMs are the only boxes I’ve found so far that can meet any of the size and frequency requirements I need while still being as loud as possible... but would be great if anyone else know of something similar that might work better.
Ideally I would have 2 Double 18s either side but I simply can’t move cabs that big and most venues they wouldn’t fit either, so that’s why I thought a single horn loaded 18 would make up some of the SPL lost, while keeping the size as compact as can be..
I need a absolute minimum of 40hz, 30-35hz ideally.. in a box no bigger than the tham 18 give it take an inch or 2, and can be transported by one not very strong person.
The Cubo’s and THAMs are the only boxes I’ve found so far that can meet any of the size and frequency requirements I need while still being as loud as possible... but would be great if anyone else know of something similar that might work better.
Yeah I know, Hoffman’s law is a bitch but I can try and find the best compromise between all three, which i think was the idea behind these boxes in the first place..
I’ve looked at the TH18, and it would suit what I need perfect, except it just too deep, I wouldn’t fit in 70% of venues.
My maximum dimensions are no more that 24” wide. And no more than 25” deep.. Hight isn’t so much of an issue, but could do with staying under 40” high to make it practical. Ideally around 35” high would be fine.
Hence why I’ve picked the THAM and CUBO
THAM18 - 23w / 25d /31h
Cubo18 - 24w / 25d / 24h
I have considered stacking 2 Cubo's per side but it would be over 4ft high and not practical for a lot of my venues at the moment. Plus I couldn’t afford it at the moment.
I’ve looked at the TH18, and it would suit what I need perfect, except it just too deep, I wouldn’t fit in 70% of venues.
My maximum dimensions are no more that 24” wide. And no more than 25” deep.. Hight isn’t so much of an issue, but could do with staying under 40” high to make it practical. Ideally around 35” high would be fine.
Hence why I’ve picked the THAM and CUBO
THAM18 - 23w / 25d /31h
Cubo18 - 24w / 25d / 24h
I have considered stacking 2 Cubo's per side but it would be over 4ft high and not practical for a lot of my venues at the moment. Plus I couldn’t afford it at the moment.
A ROAR15 will probably beat a THAM18 in output and the ROAR has a much better midbass punch. (if you don´t have the 18 inch drivers already).
Martinsson's Blog - ROAR15
ROAR15
Grey curve is the ROAR15 with a B&C 15TBW100, 2000 watt and xmax, and the green/red is a THAM18 with the Faital Pro 18HP1060, 2400 watt and xmax.
The max spl for the ROAR is slightly tweaked based on our experience with never getting a 350 watt 15 mm xmax driver to leave xmax in a ROARlike design driven by a 5000 watt amp.
I think the midbass range 60 to 1120 Hz is very revealing of the real life performance of a bass box due to the high energy content centered there in modern music.
Martinsson's Blog - ROAR15
ROAR15
Grey curve is the ROAR15 with a B&C 15TBW100, 2000 watt and xmax, and the green/red is a THAM18 with the Faital Pro 18HP1060, 2400 watt and xmax.
The max spl for the ROAR is slightly tweaked based on our experience with never getting a 350 watt 15 mm xmax driver to leave xmax in a ROARlike design driven by a 5000 watt amp.
I think the midbass range 60 to 1120 Hz is very revealing of the real life performance of a bass box due to the high energy content centered there in modern music.
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Sounds like a BVR or ODTL might be the best fit for your needs. Any other design in a similarly- sized box may give more SPL, but a narrower usable bandwidth, and out-of-band response variances that may be of concern.
Here's an idea for a 39 Hz ODTL using your selected driver. With 600 cm^2 of vent area, good luck trying to hear any vent compression effects
. Build it so that the internal panel is removable. If you don't like how it sounds, remove it and you've got a vented box. Extend the vent upwards with an additional internal panel to lower Fb.Attachments
Well I don’t mind losing a little band width.. a high SPL 40hz to 90hz I could get away with..
SPL is more of a concern for me more than anything, purely because of past experiences never being able to get reflex bins loud enough to make any real impact... all well and good if it goes down to 25hz, but useless if you can get it loud enough to get over the acoustic drums.. if you see what I mean.
I’ve been told about this FBT Pro MaxX 15sa .. 15” 1 way band pass. the spec sheet clames : 1200w rms , 2400w peak, 38hz - 120hz . 132db continuous 136db peak..
I was put off band pass subs years ago from people saying there slow and lack impact. And that they don’t throw sound very far ?
Do you think that would be a better than anything discussed above, especially the THAM18
SPL is more of a concern for me more than anything, purely because of past experiences never being able to get reflex bins loud enough to make any real impact... all well and good if it goes down to 25hz, but useless if you can get it loud enough to get over the acoustic drums.. if you see what I mean.
I’ve been told about this FBT Pro MaxX 15sa .. 15” 1 way band pass. the spec sheet clames : 1200w rms , 2400w peak, 38hz - 120hz . 132db continuous 136db peak..
I was put off band pass subs years ago from people saying there slow and lack impact. And that they don’t throw sound very far ?
Do you think that would be a better than anything discussed above, especially the THAM18
the old "throw" concept is one of the myths that just will not go away...sound propagation still continues to follow physics no matter how ardently we wish the rules could be broken... and in my touring days we used to wish that gear could be shrunk to small "pill" form that could be reconstituted with a drop or two of water at the next arena/gig ( you know like Wyllie Coyote did on Bugs Bunny with cannons or other large objects)
with bass there's no replacement for displacement...
with bass there's no replacement for displacement...
The ROAR series is a low dispersion angle "far throw" design - just because it follows physics.
One single ROAR12 standing in the middle had a much more narrow dispersial angle and "longer throw" the two single 18 inch BR boxes spaced almost 4 meter apart.
This is very spl-dependent (more pronouced at high spl), which is quite logical because it depeds on the non linear behaviour of air at high sound pressure levels.
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