Hello,
I built the Jim Holtz Mini Statements several years ago and have been very happy with them. They use they Tang Band W4-1337SA for the mid-range. Since then I’ve seen that the Peerless NE123-08 is used in the Statement II and described as very musical and natural. I use my Mini Staements in a two channel system purely for music. My tastes are all over the board but mostly jazz, acoustic covers, and blues.
My question is, is it reasonable for me to try the NE123 in my Mini Statements? Is it likely that it could be an improvement in a music listening only application?
I have no knowledge of how to design/modify a crossover and no way of measuring frequency response or how to do it. But I can follow diagrams and instructions.
I’m certain there’s more to trying a different mid range driver than removing the original and installing the new one.
If there is a reasonable starting point on modifying the crossover to better accommodate the NE123? Would anyone be willing to offer a suggestion?
I’d really enjoy using this as a learning opportunity and I’m willing to get a microphone and software. Or.... I could sell the Mini Statements and build something different all together but I’d rather not go that far.
Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.
Jeff
I built the Jim Holtz Mini Statements several years ago and have been very happy with them. They use they Tang Band W4-1337SA for the mid-range. Since then I’ve seen that the Peerless NE123-08 is used in the Statement II and described as very musical and natural. I use my Mini Staements in a two channel system purely for music. My tastes are all over the board but mostly jazz, acoustic covers, and blues.
My question is, is it reasonable for me to try the NE123 in my Mini Statements? Is it likely that it could be an improvement in a music listening only application?
I have no knowledge of how to design/modify a crossover and no way of measuring frequency response or how to do it. But I can follow diagrams and instructions.
I’m certain there’s more to trying a different mid range driver than removing the original and installing the new one.
If there is a reasonable starting point on modifying the crossover to better accommodate the NE123? Would anyone be willing to offer a suggestion?
I’d really enjoy using this as a learning opportunity and I’m willing to get a microphone and software. Or.... I could sell the Mini Statements and build something different all together but I’d rather not go that far.
Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
As you suspect, it's a little more complicated than just swapping out the driver.
A new driver would require a complete redesign of the crossover to really get an optimal performance. Without a new crossover, the tang band would almost certainly sound superior, since it is what the crossover was designed for.
The cabinet design also might not work well for the different midrange, depending on the inside volume and baffle design.
For these reasons, I would recommend keeping your speakers intact as is and start reading anything and everything you can find about crossover design and general speaker design, then using your learnings to design and build a simple 2 way. This is what I did myself a couple years back when I was in almost exactly the same place you are, except I went ahead and just replaced a driver without asking about it first
In addition to Google searches and using this forum, I recommend the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason to start learning. It's challenging for a newcomer, but has lots of great information.
As you suspect, it's a little more complicated than just swapping out the driver.
A new driver would require a complete redesign of the crossover to really get an optimal performance. Without a new crossover, the tang band would almost certainly sound superior, since it is what the crossover was designed for.
The cabinet design also might not work well for the different midrange, depending on the inside volume and baffle design.
For these reasons, I would recommend keeping your speakers intact as is and start reading anything and everything you can find about crossover design and general speaker design, then using your learnings to design and build a simple 2 way. This is what I did myself a couple years back when I was in almost exactly the same place you are, except I went ahead and just replaced a driver without asking about it first
In addition to Google searches and using this forum, I recommend the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason to start learning. It's challenging for a newcomer, but has lots of great information.
ILikeFoodz,
Thanks for your comments and sound advice. As much as I honestly was hoping for a fast track to an experiment in drivers, your recommendations are the the right way and the one I will follow.
Regards,
Jeff
Thanks for your comments and sound advice. As much as I honestly was hoping for a fast track to an experiment in drivers, your recommendations are the the right way and the one I will follow.
Regards,
Jeff
A couple of years ago I took the Tangband 1337s out of my Mini-Statements, and substituted the NE123 - after a few weeks of playing with the crossover and measuring, I liked the Vifa a lot more. I ended up reworking the tweeter crossover also, and liked that much better than the original. Hope this will help you.
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Joetekubi,
Thank you very much. I’d like to do some reading and try to learn more about what I’m doing and hopefully understand the changes you made.
Thanks again!
Jeff
Thank you very much. I’d like to do some reading and try to learn more about what I’m doing and hopefully understand the changes you made.
Thanks again!
Jeff
Joetekubi,
Your schematic shows the positive source connecting to the positive side of the drivers. The original circuit reverses the driver polarity... positive source to the negative side of the driver.
Just looking to verify your schematic. Thanks so much.
Jeff
I worked on that crossover for a couple of weeks, and I'm pretty sure that it is correct. If you want to try it, the Vifa NE123 is a little bit smaller than the TB 1337, so you can "pop it in" easily and see for yourself.
I am quite sure of the polarity, and yes, I was also surprised that it was different than the original.
A different crossover can result in different phase shifts applied to the signals going to each driver, so it would be reasonable for it to be different. Additionally, it doesn't really matter if you hook + to + or + to - as long as the hookup for each driver is correct relative to the other driver(s). In otherwords, if both drivers are hooked up backwards then it makes no difference.
It's also worth noting that certain crossover topologies ( 2nd order Linkwitz Riley [LR2] being one example) actually result in needing the drivers hooked up opposite to each other to function properly and match the phase between drivers!
It's also worth noting that certain crossover topologies ( 2nd order Linkwitz Riley [LR2] being one example) actually result in needing the drivers hooked up opposite to each other to function properly and match the phase between drivers!
So, the Mini Statements are a 3-way design, two bass drivers which are wired + to +. The mid and tweeter are + to -. The new crossovers will make everything + to +. Feels questionable to me but I have no experience to base that feeling on. I have lots of reading to do.😊
Regards,
Jeff
here are some of the final measurements. Pretty good tweeter reverse null!
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Thank you joetekubi ! In time, I will have educated myself on speaker measurements and performance and then will be able to appreciate your final measurements graphs. Unfortunately, today I can’t identify or understand one thing from it. But I am very encouraged that you’re pleased with the final measurements and so, I will be ordering components and try the modification. I’ll share my feedback when completed, using my ears as my final measurement for now. 🙂
Jeff
Thanks!
Joetekubi, I completed my Mini Statement midrange modification... thanks to your help. So far I’m very happy with the sound. I didn’t spend a ton of money on capacitors. My system is streaming Spotify or Tidal through Sonos into a Rega Dac r, then a Transendent Sound Grounded Grid pre, then a Odyssey Khartago amp. I might try changing coupling caps in the preamp someday but it all sounds really nice. Thanks again for the crossover circuits and reply’s!
Jeff
Joetekubi, I completed my Mini Statement midrange modification... thanks to your help. So far I’m very happy with the sound. I didn’t spend a ton of money on capacitors. My system is streaming Spotify or Tidal through Sonos into a Rega Dac r, then a Transendent Sound Grounded Grid pre, then a Odyssey Khartago amp. I might try changing coupling caps in the preamp someday but it all sounds really nice. Thanks again for the crossover circuits and reply’s!
Jeff
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