So if a persons ears are 2 mm further apart than another Person, it means the speaker positioning has to be different?
Maybe this explains why subjective reviews can be so different?
Just trolling 😀 ha ha
Maybe this explains why subjective reviews can be so different?
Just trolling 😀 ha ha
Did you read post #16483?
That is a reasonable description of what is happening with regards the bass. When you do the prescribed procedure you do hear subtle little differences in the bass as you move the one speaker. What you are trying to find is the smoothest bass. That is a general description, but that's how it has been put to me by those who know the procedure. And yes, sometimes small movements of the speaker can make a difference. But not every 2mm movement makes a difference. That's part of what makes this all so time consuming is that you have to find those places where the small movements make a difference.
One more post on the speaker set up stuff...........................
Everyone knows about the "sweet spot" for listening. This will always be some spot exactly the size of the listening chair and be perfectly centered between the two speakers, and maybe even at the point of an equilateral triangle with the speakers pointed directly at you.
This works because at that one "spot", you hear the two speakers equally. But move the slightest amount to a side and it all goes away, or at least the sound moves to the side with you. This is just a given for most folks, and considered just normal and how it goes. And no matter how you put the two speakers into a room, this will happen.
But it doesn't have to happen at all.
The video mentions trying to visualize the listening room as two halves with the dividing line being a perpendicular line between the two speakers as an invisible boundary. You then take a look around and see what is in each half of the room and how similar or different each half of the room actually is, with regards size, furnishings, reflecting points/areas, absorption areas, etc.
Remember you are trying to fill the room with sound pressure from the speakers and each speaker is primarily tasked with it's side of the room. Unless each side of the room is exactly equal in all aspects, each speaker is going to have to do a different amount of sound pressurizing to get equal total sound in the room in most all places in the room.
And the best way to get that equal sound pressure in all places in the room is when you "close the gate", as mentioned in the video, with the second speaker and "matching" the anchored first set speaker. And when you get this equal sound pressure match, you can be most anywhere in the listening room and hear the sound be in the same place between the speakers, like in a real music venue. And you no longer have to sit in one particular spot the size of a chair and keep your head motionless. And the music will sound much more natural as both speakers are working perfectly together.
In my own listening room, of 13x14x10 feet, a nice almost cube, with a large bay window on one side and a fireplace a bit out into the room where I would prefer to sit as it's in the middle of the room, I have to sit off to the side and directly in front of the right speaker. I can do the prescribed set up method and get perfectly centered sound from my seat, as well as in the middle and over to the left.
Everyone knows about the "sweet spot" for listening. This will always be some spot exactly the size of the listening chair and be perfectly centered between the two speakers, and maybe even at the point of an equilateral triangle with the speakers pointed directly at you.
This works because at that one "spot", you hear the two speakers equally. But move the slightest amount to a side and it all goes away, or at least the sound moves to the side with you. This is just a given for most folks, and considered just normal and how it goes. And no matter how you put the two speakers into a room, this will happen.
But it doesn't have to happen at all.
The video mentions trying to visualize the listening room as two halves with the dividing line being a perpendicular line between the two speakers as an invisible boundary. You then take a look around and see what is in each half of the room and how similar or different each half of the room actually is, with regards size, furnishings, reflecting points/areas, absorption areas, etc.
Remember you are trying to fill the room with sound pressure from the speakers and each speaker is primarily tasked with it's side of the room. Unless each side of the room is exactly equal in all aspects, each speaker is going to have to do a different amount of sound pressurizing to get equal total sound in the room in most all places in the room.
And the best way to get that equal sound pressure in all places in the room is when you "close the gate", as mentioned in the video, with the second speaker and "matching" the anchored first set speaker. And when you get this equal sound pressure match, you can be most anywhere in the listening room and hear the sound be in the same place between the speakers, like in a real music venue. And you no longer have to sit in one particular spot the size of a chair and keep your head motionless. And the music will sound much more natural as both speakers are working perfectly together.
In my own listening room, of 13x14x10 feet, a nice almost cube, with a large bay window on one side and a fireplace a bit out into the room where I would prefer to sit as it's in the middle of the room, I have to sit off to the side and directly in front of the right speaker. I can do the prescribed set up method and get perfectly centered sound from my seat, as well as in the middle and over to the left.
Or your could use physics and design a speaker that doesn't suffer from beaming and other issues that drive you to a 'sweet spot'...
One reason small movements of speakers might make a difference if there is a wooden floor. In that case, how the floor vibrates may depend on the location of joists that may not be taken into consideration when modeling the room as a simple box. Not what I wanted to ask about though.
What I would like to ask about is, so far we have heard why the speaker setup method is so good. What about the downsides? There must be some, or every mixing and mastering room would have the speakers setup by the method being promoted. So far as I can tell, equilateral triangle near field mixing is still considered quite effective. The big speakers in the wall or other speaker setups designed to to sound 'great' are there to impress clients who don't know any better.
Last edited:
Without trying proper speaker placement, I have to live with what I have. The rest of you are in the same position, I presume.
I have a 300 mm thick concrete floor, in which a 100 mm thick polystyrene insulation layer is embedded and on top of that the underfloor heating tubing. There is no resonance at audio frequencies. Zero.
Again, please explain how a 2 mm movement in speaker positioning affects the sound.
Please, no videos or other advanced phsychological stuff. Just explain it in simple physics terms.
Some may call me an a-whole, but I just want to keep the discussion rooted in reality.
Again, please explain how a 2 mm movement in speaker positioning affects the sound.
Please, no videos or other advanced phsychological stuff. Just explain it in simple physics terms.
Some may call me an a-whole, but I just want to keep the discussion rooted in reality.
You mean like a speaker with constant directivity and equal power level in the 180 degrees for a forward firing speaker?
I suspect that Bill is clueless, like the rest of us, on how to do that for every situation. What I care about is: What works! IF moving speaker a few mm makes difference at some setup point in speaker conditioning, the so be it. I have never tried in on my own loudspeakers, but I have heard the lecture of someone who has, and I believe him. Far more than the critics of higher fidelity that are here.
Good one, and I used to ask much the same thing when I first learned about this way of putting speakers in a room. I got a twofold answer. 1. This should have come out in 1957 when stereo first came out. 2. Do not underestimate the power of the male ego. In other words, there are a lot of audio folks out there who know everything and are not about to admit there is something they do not know.
My first experience at hearing music with this set up was unique I guess. I saw these banners on the wall and this guy talked and talked, but I had no idea what he was talking about or what the banners were for. I eventually got to where I asked, "What's going on here and why does the music sound so real no matter where I sit?" Most others who came into the room would politely listen and then go. I've heard this in a real proper showroom and nobody asks anything, and so I guess they just think it's good because of all the pricey stuff in the room. Audio show exhibit rooms usually have less than ideal sound and nobody stays for more than a couple selections at most. I stayed in this room for 3 hours, when I didn't have to. I have never really understood why others have not been as impressed as I initially was and continue to be.
I do know that this has never taken off in any sort of business way. Sumiko kept it proprietary for years, and made people swear on a stack of Bibles to not give out the secrets. Ya, a few trained people do setups for a business now, but who's gonna pay someone to set their speakers in a room? Just look at the gallery on the rational speaker set up website, that's who..............
Oh, Downside................................ How can there be a downside to music that sounds real close to music in a venue? That is kind of a goal I presume? Or am I wrong about that?
I can now read a few post where the poster is wondering how moving a speaker a couple mm can make a difference.
Just think back to one of my earlier posts about how speaker setting is analogous to focusing binoculars, if you know how to do that. The final movement with the adjustable lens is small to get everything in perfect focus. That's kind of what's going on. Of course it's lots easier to understand with something visual than aural.
Just think back to one of my earlier posts about how speaker setting is analogous to focusing binoculars, if you know how to do that. The final movement with the adjustable lens is small to get everything in perfect focus. That's kind of what's going on. Of course it's lots easier to understand with something visual than aural.
Except the difference is orders of magnitude off. Inappropriate analogies are common in audio. A cm is a tiny portion of a wavelength at bass frequencies while focusing a lens goes through many wavelengths.
Actually, many pop records sound much better than any sound in a venue ever could. And they are often mixed using equilateral near field monitors. For mixing it is important to know exactly what is going onto a record, and not presume a CD buyer's room will sound exactly the same as the mixing room. Also for getting balances just right, it really is critical to have the right speakers that work for a particular mix engineer and that are often used near field. Totally different application from casual music enjoyment at home. Similar to the case for mixing, mastering rooms are designed to hear the slightest flaws in a recording. There may be some very controlled room ambiance, but not so much to interfere with the very sensitive task at hand.
There are other tasks that require accurately hearing what is coming out of the speakers in the near field. Room sound is definitely an unwanted distraction in some cases. Some people may just want to hear what is on the record sans room reverb.
Last edited:
You cannot sit accurately within a couple of mm unless you are in the clockwork orange conditioning scene. It's also a hard thing to keep your head still to that accuracy. Therefore suggesting the speaker position needs to be within a couple of mm when the listener isn't is a big leap of faith.
Now I am all for methods and techniques that allow people to setup their speakers without having to resort to measurement microphones and detailed analysis. Dave Wilson used to talk a lot about his setup method in interviews. There does however appear to be a lot of mumbo jumbo added to make it seem like it transcends known acoustics and that what is done cannot be explained. This grates with me a little.
Now I am all for methods and techniques that allow people to setup their speakers without having to resort to measurement microphones and detailed analysis. Dave Wilson used to talk a lot about his setup method in interviews. There does however appear to be a lot of mumbo jumbo added to make it seem like it transcends known acoustics and that what is done cannot be explained. This grates with me a little.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.