Hi Everyone, I'm wondering if someone here can shed some light on this for me.
Im a professional musician, and a trained sound engineer with my own studio, i have a pretty good understanding of sound and how things work, but being dyslexic seriously lacking on maths side of things when it comes to working things out.
my band has been slowly building its reputation and moving up into bigger venues, so a year half ago decided to upgrade my rig and bought a bose F1 system because of its power size and weight, it was the most powerful and smallest i could afford. i assumed that 2,000 Watt peak per side would be enough, but I've been becoming more and more disappointed with it. its maxed out most of the time to the post where its starting to clip . having to crank up the input gains and overall output to get the main vocals loud enough at the back of the rooms, its becoming a daily struggle. and of course you reach a point where the main vocal mic is that loud theres no way to stop the feedback without physically turning it down.
i must point out were a very very loud old fashioned blues rock band, with two 1960s 100w Marshall stacks with 4x12 cabs, 1000w 8x10 and 1x15 Bass rig, Large over loud 60s drum kit..oh and the main vocalist plays harmonica into the same mic, and is constant cupping the mic in his hands tp play ( feedback nightmare ) .. 95% of the time we full the room with stage sound alone, the PA is really just used for sound reinforcement and spreading the sound, mainly gets used just for vocals , kick drum, high hat, and sometimes guitar if outdoors.... im constantly getting a few people per gig coming up and commenting on how amazing the sound is. the comment i always get is ( " i felt like i was at a stadium gig, it was amazing "), but for me being a musician and someone who enjoys good sound, its nowhere near where i would like it.
i need to be able to cover up to 1,500 to 2,000 people comfortably if need be, in the smallest and lightest package as posable, having a bad back means the rest of the band has to move the rig. so i have to keep that in mind. and to be honest i can just about push the bose system enough to get away with it on as good day, ( by using the stage monitors and centre fills) , but like i said its constantly clipping. my issues are the kick drum doesn't have nowhere near enough punch and thud, and i struggle to get the vocals loud enough at the back of the room.
ignoring the kick drum issue for now, because i think thats pretty easy to solve with some kind of folded horn subs.. ive been looking into the original ways of doing things in the 60s and 70s, ( because in my opinion the old ways have always been better ) with the WEM PA Columns. im considering building modern day versions with high powered modern drivers.. as mid high boxes, but with enough low end to be used standalone if needed, in smaller venues for the kick drum.
im looking at either 4x12 or 4x10 boxes with a horn HF driver on top.. im trying to workout my likely max SPL and highest and lowest Useable frequency of the box itself regardless of the drivers i put in it, because i know you can only make a enclosure go so low and so loud due to its size. ..
the original 60s enclosure sizes are ( 4x12" _ 55"H / 16"W / 10"D ) and ( 4x10" _ 48" / 14" /10" ) can anyone give me an idea of the frequency and SPL limitations of boxes that size ? and if porting them would help as the originals were sealed.
if i had my way id go to a completely horn loaded system with separate low, mid and high boxes, but there's no way with the size and weight of something like that. and the fact that one day we might be playing in a venue that holds 1,000 people and the next day in an venue that holds 80 people. it needs to be as small as posable.
any ides or info would be greatly received
Thanks
Luke
Im a professional musician, and a trained sound engineer with my own studio, i have a pretty good understanding of sound and how things work, but being dyslexic seriously lacking on maths side of things when it comes to working things out.
my band has been slowly building its reputation and moving up into bigger venues, so a year half ago decided to upgrade my rig and bought a bose F1 system because of its power size and weight, it was the most powerful and smallest i could afford. i assumed that 2,000 Watt peak per side would be enough, but I've been becoming more and more disappointed with it. its maxed out most of the time to the post where its starting to clip . having to crank up the input gains and overall output to get the main vocals loud enough at the back of the rooms, its becoming a daily struggle. and of course you reach a point where the main vocal mic is that loud theres no way to stop the feedback without physically turning it down.
i must point out were a very very loud old fashioned blues rock band, with two 1960s 100w Marshall stacks with 4x12 cabs, 1000w 8x10 and 1x15 Bass rig, Large over loud 60s drum kit..oh and the main vocalist plays harmonica into the same mic, and is constant cupping the mic in his hands tp play ( feedback nightmare ) .. 95% of the time we full the room with stage sound alone, the PA is really just used for sound reinforcement and spreading the sound, mainly gets used just for vocals , kick drum, high hat, and sometimes guitar if outdoors.... im constantly getting a few people per gig coming up and commenting on how amazing the sound is. the comment i always get is ( " i felt like i was at a stadium gig, it was amazing "), but for me being a musician and someone who enjoys good sound, its nowhere near where i would like it.
i need to be able to cover up to 1,500 to 2,000 people comfortably if need be, in the smallest and lightest package as posable, having a bad back means the rest of the band has to move the rig. so i have to keep that in mind. and to be honest i can just about push the bose system enough to get away with it on as good day, ( by using the stage monitors and centre fills) , but like i said its constantly clipping. my issues are the kick drum doesn't have nowhere near enough punch and thud, and i struggle to get the vocals loud enough at the back of the room.
ignoring the kick drum issue for now, because i think thats pretty easy to solve with some kind of folded horn subs.. ive been looking into the original ways of doing things in the 60s and 70s, ( because in my opinion the old ways have always been better ) with the WEM PA Columns. im considering building modern day versions with high powered modern drivers.. as mid high boxes, but with enough low end to be used standalone if needed, in smaller venues for the kick drum.
im looking at either 4x12 or 4x10 boxes with a horn HF driver on top.. im trying to workout my likely max SPL and highest and lowest Useable frequency of the box itself regardless of the drivers i put in it, because i know you can only make a enclosure go so low and so loud due to its size. ..
the original 60s enclosure sizes are ( 4x12" _ 55"H / 16"W / 10"D ) and ( 4x10" _ 48" / 14" /10" ) can anyone give me an idea of the frequency and SPL limitations of boxes that size ? and if porting them would help as the originals were sealed.
if i had my way id go to a completely horn loaded system with separate low, mid and high boxes, but there's no way with the size and weight of something like that. and the fact that one day we might be playing in a venue that holds 1,000 people and the next day in an venue that holds 80 people. it needs to be as small as posable.
any ides or info would be greatly received
Thanks
Luke
Hi Luke!
Your problem could be one of sound projection. This used to be solved by using column speakers which give wide horizontal dispersion while reducing the amount of sound directed at the floor and ceiling (or empty sky in the case of an outdoor gig!).
However, the Bose F1 system you are using comprises of two woofer assisted compact line arrays with 'steerable' drivers to aid dispersion, so should project well.
Bose F1 |
Could it simply be that the Bose F1 system no longer has sufficient power for your needs? 1 kilowatt per line array sounds good, but does not claim to be an RMS rating.
P.S. I have read that the WEM "B" column was really heavy and employed full range drivers which actually sounded rather good.
Anyway, I hope my contribution helps get the discussion going. 🙂
Attachments
A PA system that's suitable for 2000 people outdoors is going to be big, heavy and expensive.
... and complete overkill for 80 people the next day.
My recommendation would be this: figure out what will cover 90% of your gigs. If you mostly do smaller venues, and play to 2000 people once per year, it makes sense to rent a system for that once per year, and have something small and light to use for the smaller gigs.
Put on your business hat and consider cost vs return on investment. A PA system that gets used in it's entirety for every gig is one that will be paid for quickly. A PA system that comes out once a year might never earn it's cost.
If you still want to provide sound reinforcement for 2000 people outdoors, you're going to need to set aside at least £10,000, and that's just racks 'n' stacks. I'm gonna assume you've got all the mics, stage monitors, stands, cables, mixing desk, power distro, etc to run all this properly.
You'll also need tools to build the cabinets.
I'd be looking at something like 2x Peter Morris's 60-degree boxes and 4x 18" tapped horns per side.
The good 18"s cost around £400, and you'll need eight of them. There's £3200 already. I haven't checked what the PM60 boxes cost, but you can bet it'll be another couple of thousand. We're half-way through the budget, and all we have is a pile of drivers.
A load of birch ply, cut to size, will be another £1000, and if you shop around you can probably get the amp racks done in the remainder of the budget.
It might seem like I'm being harsh, and I'm sorry if that's the case. It's important to realise that large-format PA systems aren't quick, cheap or easy in any way. If you want it to sound good for your audience, it's going to be a serious investment in time and money.
Chris
... and complete overkill for 80 people the next day.
My recommendation would be this: figure out what will cover 90% of your gigs. If you mostly do smaller venues, and play to 2000 people once per year, it makes sense to rent a system for that once per year, and have something small and light to use for the smaller gigs.
Put on your business hat and consider cost vs return on investment. A PA system that gets used in it's entirety for every gig is one that will be paid for quickly. A PA system that comes out once a year might never earn it's cost.
If you still want to provide sound reinforcement for 2000 people outdoors, you're going to need to set aside at least £10,000, and that's just racks 'n' stacks. I'm gonna assume you've got all the mics, stage monitors, stands, cables, mixing desk, power distro, etc to run all this properly.
You'll also need tools to build the cabinets.
I'd be looking at something like 2x Peter Morris's 60-degree boxes and 4x 18" tapped horns per side.
The good 18"s cost around £400, and you'll need eight of them. There's £3200 already. I haven't checked what the PM60 boxes cost, but you can bet it'll be another couple of thousand. We're half-way through the budget, and all we have is a pile of drivers.
A load of birch ply, cut to size, will be another £1000, and if you shop around you can probably get the amp racks done in the remainder of the budget.
It might seem like I'm being harsh, and I'm sorry if that's the case. It's important to realise that large-format PA systems aren't quick, cheap or easy in any way. If you want it to sound good for your audience, it's going to be a serious investment in time and money.
Chris
Thank you guys for your responses.
Galu: yeah it dose seam to be a decent projection issue, the whole reason why I bought the F1 system was because of the adjustable line array. I thought “ great the back of the room will able to here us now” and to be fair it dose reach the back of the room, but all the energy and clarity is lost.. no crack to the kick drum just a rubble, and the same with the vocals. You can hear the vocals but can’t really make out what is being said.. and if you correct the eq so that it’s Clear at the back, it’s to sharp and spiky at the front and people complain..
Chris661: yeah I do understand, I used to have a passive system with the amp rack and out board gear to run it and it was just to big and heavy, heance the move to a active system.. if I could afford it and use it properly I know exactly what I’d do and get and there wouldn’t be an issue. But there’s just no way at the moment. My issue with a rig that size is that generally most venues we play that are bigger enough to need 4x18s etc normally have there own in house rig. So problem solved.. but there’s a vew maybe 5 to 10 times a year where there’s no house PA system or its outdoors and my current rig is doing well, just needs that little bit more. I’m saying 2,000 people as a overly high number so theres power / volume in reserve and so it’s not maxed out..
I’ve looked into hiring systems for the odd gigs and can’t find a company that has a rig the right size, there either massively over kill or smaller than what I have. And the the cost of hiring would wipeout anything would be earning that night. If anything we would have to put money towards it!.
My bands suck in this middle ground between large venues ( 1,000 + ) and smaller club venues. And we’re not earning enough to justify the outlay., I had to personally save for 2 years to afford the F1 system because as a band there was no way we could have afforded anything. And because it’s my band under my name and I do everything it meant I really had to buy it myself...
I’m just looking for that extra dispersion and coverage. An extra 10db at the back of the room and more of a thud from the kick drum.
The 3” speakers in the Bose line array and the 12” and 10” Woffers just can’t move enough air. Hence my thinking that the old WEM style early line Array of 4x12” or 4x10” woffers and a HF driver would move just enough air for the mid highs, and maybe some 12” tapped horn or 15” for subs. Obviously if I can build it and keep cost to a minimum the better.. I have two Yamaha p7000s power amps here left from my old passive rig... I have no experience with anything along those lines. Only the standard 1x18 and 1x12 with a horn front loaded cabs you can get from anywhere cheap.
In not sure 4x10” and tapped horn 12” would have enough punch?
Any thoughts ??
Luke
Galu: yeah it dose seam to be a decent projection issue, the whole reason why I bought the F1 system was because of the adjustable line array. I thought “ great the back of the room will able to here us now” and to be fair it dose reach the back of the room, but all the energy and clarity is lost.. no crack to the kick drum just a rubble, and the same with the vocals. You can hear the vocals but can’t really make out what is being said.. and if you correct the eq so that it’s Clear at the back, it’s to sharp and spiky at the front and people complain..
Chris661: yeah I do understand, I used to have a passive system with the amp rack and out board gear to run it and it was just to big and heavy, heance the move to a active system.. if I could afford it and use it properly I know exactly what I’d do and get and there wouldn’t be an issue. But there’s just no way at the moment. My issue with a rig that size is that generally most venues we play that are bigger enough to need 4x18s etc normally have there own in house rig. So problem solved.. but there’s a vew maybe 5 to 10 times a year where there’s no house PA system or its outdoors and my current rig is doing well, just needs that little bit more. I’m saying 2,000 people as a overly high number so theres power / volume in reserve and so it’s not maxed out..
I’ve looked into hiring systems for the odd gigs and can’t find a company that has a rig the right size, there either massively over kill or smaller than what I have. And the the cost of hiring would wipeout anything would be earning that night. If anything we would have to put money towards it!.
My bands suck in this middle ground between large venues ( 1,000 + ) and smaller club venues. And we’re not earning enough to justify the outlay., I had to personally save for 2 years to afford the F1 system because as a band there was no way we could have afforded anything. And because it’s my band under my name and I do everything it meant I really had to buy it myself...
I’m just looking for that extra dispersion and coverage. An extra 10db at the back of the room and more of a thud from the kick drum.
The 3” speakers in the Bose line array and the 12” and 10” Woffers just can’t move enough air. Hence my thinking that the old WEM style early line Array of 4x12” or 4x10” woffers and a HF driver would move just enough air for the mid highs, and maybe some 12” tapped horn or 15” for subs. Obviously if I can build it and keep cost to a minimum the better.. I have two Yamaha p7000s power amps here left from my old passive rig... I have no experience with anything along those lines. Only the standard 1x18 and 1x12 with a horn front loaded cabs you can get from anywhere cheap.
In not sure 4x10” and tapped horn 12” would have enough punch?
Any thoughts ??
Luke
Hi Luke!
The pics certainly help put your range of gigs into context!
Would it be your intention to continue to run the Bose system but supplement it with the Yamaha amps and WEM type columns for larger gigs?
Or are you talking about replacing the Bose system entirely?
I've attached details of your Yamaha amps to help any prospective speaker designers with respect to the power handling required etc.
Yamaha P7000S Power Amplifier - Power Amplifiers - Studio Gear - Studiospares
The pics certainly help put your range of gigs into context!
Would it be your intention to continue to run the Bose system but supplement it with the Yamaha amps and WEM type columns for larger gigs?
Or are you talking about replacing the Bose system entirely?
I've attached details of your Yamaha amps to help any prospective speaker designers with respect to the power handling required etc.
Yamaha P7000S Power Amplifier - Power Amplifiers - Studio Gear - Studiospares
Hi Galu,
well currently my main concern is getting vocals louder and clear at the back of venues. I would love to use the Bose system along side something else, but I also have space limits within the band van to think about, with all backline gear , merchandise and drums it doesn’t leave much space for pa. Last year for outdoor gigs I used one of the Yamaha power amps to drive a pair of 1000w 1x15 passive Yamahas tops, I have left from my old rig. Along side the Bose system to try and spread the sound. And cover a larger area... I know I wasn’t in the crowd to really know, but the reports I had back were that you still couldn’t make out the vocal from mid way back... I did read on my meter 129db within a few feet of the stage. I might have a video if that gig ( possibly attached below )
What I’m thinking to keep cost down that I would continue useing the Bose subs that are crossed over at 100hz and use something else on top .
Messing about with a few online programs and calculater 3x10” columns seam to give the best result in a WEM sized box, ( 48”H / 14”W / 12”D ) and if ported will go down to 61hz ( apparently)..
dose anyone think that will be any kind of improvement over the bose F1 tops I have now? Any kind of improvement will be better than nothing
Luke
well currently my main concern is getting vocals louder and clear at the back of venues. I would love to use the Bose system along side something else, but I also have space limits within the band van to think about, with all backline gear , merchandise and drums it doesn’t leave much space for pa. Last year for outdoor gigs I used one of the Yamaha power amps to drive a pair of 1000w 1x15 passive Yamahas tops, I have left from my old rig. Along side the Bose system to try and spread the sound. And cover a larger area... I know I wasn’t in the crowd to really know, but the reports I had back were that you still couldn’t make out the vocal from mid way back... I did read on my meter 129db within a few feet of the stage. I might have a video if that gig ( possibly attached below )
What I’m thinking to keep cost down that I would continue useing the Bose subs that are crossed over at 100hz and use something else on top .
Messing about with a few online programs and calculater 3x10” columns seam to give the best result in a WEM sized box, ( 48”H / 14”W / 12”D ) and if ported will go down to 61hz ( apparently)..
dose anyone think that will be any kind of improvement over the bose F1 tops I have now? Any kind of improvement will be better than nothing
Luke
Hopefully these videos might help give you a better idea... in the one video you can clearly hear the kick drum, in one of the few venues where volume wasn’t an issue. If anything it was too loud.
And in the other 2 from the same gig outdoors, I’m useing the f1 system and the Yamaha 1x15tops. Everything is mic’ed except the toms.. everything was clipping for the entire 2hour set, luckily nothing blew up. The venue said the space hold up to 700 people, but there were people stood on tables and on fire esscapes, and walls, we guess an extra 50 to 80 people were crammed in.. apparently the we were clear and as loud as hell 2 streets away, and a few feet back we were clear, as you can tell in the one video, but the people at the back still said they couldn’t hear the vocals, and the kick had no punch.
One video YouTube
Two video Debbie Doherty - UPTON blues festival. Wow what a crowed....
Three video Debbie Doherty - South Shropshire Blues Club
I suggest listing with good headphones or speakers
Luke
And in the other 2 from the same gig outdoors, I’m useing the f1 system and the Yamaha 1x15tops. Everything is mic’ed except the toms.. everything was clipping for the entire 2hour set, luckily nothing blew up. The venue said the space hold up to 700 people, but there were people stood on tables and on fire esscapes, and walls, we guess an extra 50 to 80 people were crammed in.. apparently the we were clear and as loud as hell 2 streets away, and a few feet back we were clear, as you can tell in the one video, but the people at the back still said they couldn’t hear the vocals, and the kick had no punch.
One video YouTube
Two video Debbie Doherty - UPTON blues festival. Wow what a crowed....
Three video Debbie Doherty - South Shropshire Blues Club
I suggest listing with good headphones or speakers
Luke
Luke.. love the band this is my kind of music, but I'm gonna have to give you bit of a reality check on a few points.
And cost is the other thing, the FOH system in your first pic is what is called a ground stacked line array, that "small" stack of boxes probably cost $30k or more!!
I feel bad that you got sucked into that Bose system , for what you paid you could have got something a lot more capable and a lot more suitable to your needs.
The current state of the art speaker system that delivers the most cohesive sound is something called a unity or synergy horn, it has multiple drivers mounted on a single large horn which physically time aligns output from all of them. It may look alien to you but it flat out works and is capable of seriously high output depending upon how big you go, Danly Sound Labs is the retail manufacturer for these(Tom Danley designed them) that has some really large versions capable of covering football stadiums but folks here have completed DIY versions too.
Another speaker system that is getting some really good reviews lately is the dB Technologies Ingenia series, the 4t is a column array with four 6.5" woofers and a single 3" compression driver. This system is self powered, light weight and powerful with a focus on mid/high clarity, it's a scaled up version of the Bose system in a way with key differences most important of which is the large format compression driver, you don't know what that means right now so you'll just have to take my word for it.. it makes all the difference. If you decide to DIY a solution in the end you need to use one of these large and unfortunately expensive compression drivers. In any case I think you need to check this system out in person if at all possible.. INGENIA IG4T
For the kick drum sound you are craving there is no way around it... you need big subs. The most compact solution will be reflex subs, the drivers available today are amazingly powerful but here again the bottom line is it's gonna CO$T!! To produce kick drum you can feel at the back of a 500 cap room you will need a minimum of four 3000w 18" reflex subs. These drivers cost $500 each but if you want the most bang for your buck in the least amount of space this is what it takes. B&C 18SW115 18" Neodymium Subwoofer Speaker Driver
Thoughts? I know I may have burst your bubble there but I'm just trying to give you some honest info and reign in your expectations a bit, the other comment you made that made me shake my head was this one..
The smallest/lightest PA system capable of that would fill one of these, I'm sorry but your wants and desires are totally out of wack with the reality of what can be reasonably moved by a bar band.
And cost is the other thing, the FOH system in your first pic is what is called a ground stacked line array, that "small" stack of boxes probably cost $30k or more!!
I feel bad that you got sucked into that Bose system , for what you paid you could have got something a lot more capable and a lot more suitable to your needs.
Mixing different types of speaker systems is a recipe for disaster, this is making the problem worse not better. I'm gonna suggest you sell the complete Bose setup as it will not play well with what you need and the fewest number of speakers you can use to do the job the better.
The current state of the art speaker system that delivers the most cohesive sound is something called a unity or synergy horn, it has multiple drivers mounted on a single large horn which physically time aligns output from all of them. It may look alien to you but it flat out works and is capable of seriously high output depending upon how big you go, Danly Sound Labs is the retail manufacturer for these(Tom Danley designed them) that has some really large versions capable of covering football stadiums but folks here have completed DIY versions too.
Another speaker system that is getting some really good reviews lately is the dB Technologies Ingenia series, the 4t is a column array with four 6.5" woofers and a single 3" compression driver. This system is self powered, light weight and powerful with a focus on mid/high clarity, it's a scaled up version of the Bose system in a way with key differences most important of which is the large format compression driver, you don't know what that means right now so you'll just have to take my word for it.. it makes all the difference. If you decide to DIY a solution in the end you need to use one of these large and unfortunately expensive compression drivers. In any case I think you need to check this system out in person if at all possible.. INGENIA IG4T
For the kick drum sound you are craving there is no way around it... you need big subs. The most compact solution will be reflex subs, the drivers available today are amazingly powerful but here again the bottom line is it's gonna CO$T!! To produce kick drum you can feel at the back of a 500 cap room you will need a minimum of four 3000w 18" reflex subs. These drivers cost $500 each but if you want the most bang for your buck in the least amount of space this is what it takes. B&C 18SW115 18" Neodymium Subwoofer Speaker Driver
Thoughts? I know I may have burst your bubble there but I'm just trying to give you some honest info and reign in your expectations a bit, the other comment you made that made me shake my head was this one..
You don't realize that 10dB more is a MASSIVE amount, 10dB more than the Bose system delivers will cost you 10x more money, let that sink in for a moment.
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Conanski, thank you for you reply. I am fully aware of everything you said, and in an ideal world that’s what I’d do. The photo is a venue near me that I’ve played a few times And is just a reference point, that venue actually holds 5,000 people and the house rig is smaller than the my Bose rig, hence why the line array in the photo was hired in by a Tribute band.... I’ve been looking at the danly sound labs speakers for a few years and other brands along the same lines, but size and cost put them way out of my reach. Plus there almost impossible to get hold of in the UK.. there’s nowhere that I know of that I can go to and listen anything more exotic than Makie thumps, it was hard enough getting hold of the Bose f1 to listen too. And then I could only listen to a single top at low volume ..... If someone’s got diy synergy horn plans on a on a smaller scale I’m very interested..but obviously making a horn smaller limits the frqancy range and projection. I do understand the immediate impact a large scale compression driver makes.. .. I do know how much 10db is and how much it would cost, I know it might not come across in my termanolagy and explanations but I do have a pretty good understanding of sound and cost. And how it all works.
Something to try that's cheap - get the main speakers higher up.
It's very easy for sound to carry to the back when there's clear line-of-sight. Much more difficult when it's blocked by a few hundred water bags.
FWIW, I run a live sound business and have a PA system here that will be the right sort of thing for what you're looking for. I know it's a bit of a treck, but it might be worth seeing if we can meet up for a demo.
Chris
It's very easy for sound to carry to the back when there's clear line-of-sight. Much more difficult when it's blocked by a few hundred water bags.
FWIW, I run a live sound business and have a PA system here that will be the right sort of thing for what you're looking for. I know it's a bit of a treck, but it might be worth seeing if we can meet up for a demo.
Chris
Output power is usually proportional to size of speakers.
You need the area of speaker cones to be as large as possible to get most sound.
Sounds like you need a configurable system where you can use it all or just use part of the equipment for small gigs. You could still use the same amp (if used carefully) with less speakers.
You need the area of speaker cones to be as large as possible to get most sound.
Sounds like you need a configurable system where you can use it all or just use part of the equipment for small gigs. You could still use the same amp (if used carefully) with less speakers.
can you outline the gear roster for F.O.H. as is console make and model and outboard gear and fx's please.
i not sure if your currently are doing so but judiciously applied compression could help alleviate clipping problems and can go a long way to keeping the vocals on top/out front in the mix as well as keeping the kick drum in line...
i only assisted with setup of a Bose F1 system once but that was enough to learn that height and position along with selected coverage pattern affects the far field response drastically!
i not sure if your currently are doing so but judiciously applied compression could help alleviate clipping problems and can go a long way to keeping the vocals on top/out front in the mix as well as keeping the kick drum in line...
i only assisted with setup of a Bose F1 system once but that was enough to learn that height and position along with selected coverage pattern affects the far field response drastically!
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in this situation i do not understand your tops being on the floor and from the look of the picture the audience has a hip wall blocking the view of the stage...
I'm no where near as experienced as the guys above, but it seems to me that if you are generally happy with the sound of the bose but its just running out of power, then you actually want to keep them for the tops > 120hz (or there about) and employ a couple of more powerful subs to provide < 120hz. You will still get the sound quality you currently have in the midrange and hopefully get a little more out of the bose speakers as they will be doing less work. Perhaps you could purchase a couple of 18s from somewhere that offers a 30 day money back guarantee and if it doesnt work for you send them back and you've lost nothing. I know the guys above have said you'll need 4 minimum but even 2 is going to be a lot better than what you currently have. That would certainly do for the smaller gigs. Otherwise, I would agree that hiring kit for the occasional big venue gig is going to be the most cost effective way forward.
Thanks chris661, getting more Hight is something I’ve tried a few times, I made heavy duty wooden boxes to put the the whole tower on both on both sides, gives me a total hight of about 8 ft. And it dose help with coverage but not as drastically as I had hoped... that sounds very interesting what what system are you suggesting?
Nightwright7557 that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking, trying to increase the total speaker area to move more air.. something where I can add or takeaway a sub or 2 depending on the space available in the venue would be brilliant. I’ve considered getting another 2 F1 subs, and makeing use of the cuppleing affect you get when you put to subs together.
Turk 182, the gear I’m useing at the moment is , Bose f1 top and sub both sides and makie DL1608 for my mixer... I’ve tired ruining the subs in an aux feed. I’ve tired every kind of compression and where it dose help to a point, the problem I found was as soon as the singer walked away from the mic, the drums we suddenly being compressed and picked up in the vocal mic makeing them 4x louder.. tired geteing the vocal mic but that didn’t really work either because the gate needed to be high enough to cut out the drums , it was to high for the vocals so it was cutting of quite words.. I’ve tired highpassing the vocals as haigh as 250hz to keep all the enrgey in the highs, that helps a bit... it might help to point out that I have a lot more available on the the main vocal fader, and kick fader for that matter, they normally lives around -35 db, -40db but any higher and I get massive feedback on the vocal mic or the speakers start to clip, which ever comes first... yet I have no problems with the other 2 singers in the band, I can get them as loud as you like without feedback or clipping, or compression or weird eq cerves.... the main singer is useing a AKG D5, the situation is even worse with a SM58.. ... I had a friend useing my F1 system with his x32 desk, and had even worse results than I’m getting now, constantly clipping and even distorting on times, but in his defence he’s only just learning.
Yeah that photo I was useing as an extreme, to show I need to be able to make it smaller too.. that is a venue that I hate playing in, luckily it’s on,y ince a year, it’s so small you can’t even fit a full size dum kit in, and because of the ceiling hight we can’t get the tops on top of the subs on there stand.. we’re not aloud to use normal speaker stands either, because the legs would be in the walkway and be a trip hazard. So most bands that visit the venue put the speakers on the floor, or on top of there amps behind them.. my drummer is 6ft3 and he got to walk around with his legs bent in that venue.
Damo s : yeah I mean for the most part at lower volume levels the Bose sounds great, it’s only when you start pushing it that it sounds harsh and unnatural. The subs are crossed over at 100hz and the internal mid highs in the tops are crossed over at 600hz according to Bose spec sheet.. but yeah I agree I’ve been thinking of doing that. Though I’m trying to work out weather some type of horn loaded sub would suit me better than a direct radiator sub? Everyone I’ve asked has different views, nobody will say “ this will give you more thud for the same power at say 60ft “ because for my kind of music I don’t need to be any lower than say 40hz-50hz.
Nightwright7557 that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking, trying to increase the total speaker area to move more air.. something where I can add or takeaway a sub or 2 depending on the space available in the venue would be brilliant. I’ve considered getting another 2 F1 subs, and makeing use of the cuppleing affect you get when you put to subs together.
Turk 182, the gear I’m useing at the moment is , Bose f1 top and sub both sides and makie DL1608 for my mixer... I’ve tired ruining the subs in an aux feed. I’ve tired every kind of compression and where it dose help to a point, the problem I found was as soon as the singer walked away from the mic, the drums we suddenly being compressed and picked up in the vocal mic makeing them 4x louder.. tired geteing the vocal mic but that didn’t really work either because the gate needed to be high enough to cut out the drums , it was to high for the vocals so it was cutting of quite words.. I’ve tired highpassing the vocals as haigh as 250hz to keep all the enrgey in the highs, that helps a bit... it might help to point out that I have a lot more available on the the main vocal fader, and kick fader for that matter, they normally lives around -35 db, -40db but any higher and I get massive feedback on the vocal mic or the speakers start to clip, which ever comes first... yet I have no problems with the other 2 singers in the band, I can get them as loud as you like without feedback or clipping, or compression or weird eq cerves.... the main singer is useing a AKG D5, the situation is even worse with a SM58.. ... I had a friend useing my F1 system with his x32 desk, and had even worse results than I’m getting now, constantly clipping and even distorting on times, but in his defence he’s only just learning.
Yeah that photo I was useing as an extreme, to show I need to be able to make it smaller too.. that is a venue that I hate playing in, luckily it’s on,y ince a year, it’s so small you can’t even fit a full size dum kit in, and because of the ceiling hight we can’t get the tops on top of the subs on there stand.. we’re not aloud to use normal speaker stands either, because the legs would be in the walkway and be a trip hazard. So most bands that visit the venue put the speakers on the floor, or on top of there amps behind them.. my drummer is 6ft3 and he got to walk around with his legs bent in that venue.
Damo s : yeah I mean for the most part at lower volume levels the Bose sounds great, it’s only when you start pushing it that it sounds harsh and unnatural. The subs are crossed over at 100hz and the internal mid highs in the tops are crossed over at 600hz according to Bose spec sheet.. but yeah I agree I’ve been thinking of doing that. Though I’m trying to work out weather some type of horn loaded sub would suit me better than a direct radiator sub? Everyone I’ve asked has different views, nobody will say “ this will give you more thud for the same power at say 60ft “ because for my kind of music I don’t need to be any lower than say 40hz-50hz.
is anybody manning FOH or are you mixing from stage?
attack and release times along with threshold as well as i/o gain settings on compression can make them behave very differently producing good advantage while minimizing the draw backs and with attention to ratios and linking (for ducking purposes)can and does work.
with what your doing i would at the very least use a comp across the main L/R mix 4:1 ratio threshold set at -3db of system clip (or lower depending on venue size) and if there's any further limiting setting that system clip or slightly below
on the speaker front i would look into horn loaded options but size (and weight) becomes a factor fast.
in reviewing your post i noticed what console your using....
attack and release times along with threshold as well as i/o gain settings on compression can make them behave very differently producing good advantage while minimizing the draw backs and with attention to ratios and linking (for ducking purposes)can and does work.
with what your doing i would at the very least use a comp across the main L/R mix 4:1 ratio threshold set at -3db of system clip (or lower depending on venue size) and if there's any further limiting setting that system clip or slightly below
on the speaker front i would look into horn loaded options but size (and weight) becomes a factor fast.
in reviewing your post i noticed what console your using....
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Mains: 1x 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94; 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 per side
Subs: 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060 and 4x Beyma 15P1200Nd. They're within 1dB of each other. Ported boxes tuned to 40Hz.
Amplification is Powersoft - T604 for mains (bi-amped), T602 for subs (a little short on power for running all eight, but still a good amount of grunt).
All active processing, linear-phase, etc etc.
Here's what I did with 4x subs and the old amp racks (Behringer iNukes) : YouTube
See my website (link in signature) for more info.
IIRC, the Bose mains can be pole mounted. Grab some crank-up stands and get them 6-10' off the deck, and tilt them down a little. See how well they project then.
Chris
No 95% of the time I’m doing FOH and monitors from the Side. I do try and go out front with the iPad as much as possible, but obviously if I’m out there I’m not playing guitar, so there’s a large part of the mix missing. I’m the only person in the band with any knowledge or understand of sound and how the PA works so it always falls on me.. though most of the time it’s just vocals kick and snare It’s not hard to mix. It’s normally get the vocals as loud as possible before feedback, balance the kick to the rest of the kit and Its done. I have tired several different combinations on the compression and gate front, but not really found one better than the rest... I have got a limiter on The main L/R. If I remember right it’s curntly at 8:1 -5db I think.. it’s only ever the main lead vocal that clips the speakers, everything else is fine, I’ve always got plenty of head room on the desk to.
Chris661: that sounds brilliant, and I do know I need something along those lines in an ideal world.. though that’s not a million miles away from my old rig and the weight and size we’re becoming an issue, especially the amp rack, it was takeing 3 people to lift it in and out of the van and venues.
I think a few more small but heavy box’s rather than less but bigger boxes would be better suited for what I’m trying to do.
A thought I’ve just had, would something like the RCF HDL 20 line Array box’s be better than the Bose tops I have at the moment, I believe there 2x10” woffers and Big HF compression diver. Surely something along those lines wouldn’t be to hard to build on a pole mount system . 2 boxes per side for large venues and 1 per side for smaller ones..... something like that is sort of my size limit really.
Chris661: that sounds brilliant, and I do know I need something along those lines in an ideal world.. though that’s not a million miles away from my old rig and the weight and size we’re becoming an issue, especially the amp rack, it was takeing 3 people to lift it in and out of the van and venues.
I think a few more small but heavy box’s rather than less but bigger boxes would be better suited for what I’m trying to do.
A thought I’ve just had, would something like the RCF HDL 20 line Array box’s be better than the Bose tops I have at the moment, I believe there 2x10” woffers and Big HF compression diver. Surely something along those lines wouldn’t be to hard to build on a pole mount system . 2 boxes per side for large venues and 1 per side for smaller ones..... something like that is sort of my size limit really.
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