The definition of spaciousness that I know does not specify an acoustic volume or reverberation. It is applicable to any size space with any interior damping level. I don't know what counting spaces (1,2,3) means.
If a listener hears some acoustic source in an enclosed environment, they will perceive a sense of spaciousness that can be quantified. But if we place one or more microphones close to where the listener was seated and record the same acoustic source, what the listener later perceives when in another room listening to the recording over one or more loudspeakers is not so well defined.
Sure but that is really all that we have.
Nope. Even that won't do because we would be hearing a double-dose of the acoustics of the space. Live vs. recorded would be a control on what the recording team put into the release but is not practical for the rest of us.
Yup.
Certain person build 55 Hz quarter-wave tube and said "kick drum sounds more realistic then real kick drum"
Certain person build 55 Hz quarter-wave tube and said "kick drum sounds more realistic then real kick drum"
Yep. Their job is to record the music as "realistic sounding" as possible, and our job is to playback it as "realistic sounding" as possible. Accurate playback is a wrong goal, IMO.
Earl,
We always checked in mono to see if anything "disappeared" Plus a few other tricks described here: 6 Easy Ways To Eliminate Phase Cancellation In Your Mixes - Behind The Speakers But mostly a nonissue.
PS. +1 on "Spatial Hearing" by Blauert.
While seemingly off topic, sometimes it is good to know how the sausage is made. The Art of Mixing by David Gibson is worth a few moments of peoples time to at least see the visual representation of imaging: YouTube
If you don't want to know how mixes are made in the studio, don't watch
Earl,
We always checked in mono to see if anything "disappeared" Plus a few other tricks described here: 6 Easy Ways To Eliminate Phase Cancellation In Your Mixes - Behind The Speakers But mostly a nonissue.
PS. +1 on "Spatial Hearing" by Blauert.
While seemingly off topic, sometimes it is good to know how the sausage is made. The Art of Mixing by David Gibson is worth a few moments of peoples time to at least see the visual representation of imaging: YouTube
If you don't want to know how mixes are made in the studio, don't watch
Thanks for posting that Mitch - that is my understanding as well.
We seem to be on the same page despite being is vastly different parts of the profession.
Is spaciousness being confused with reverberation here? Maybe I should go back to school
It's an alternative reality for some.So much for "High Fidelity" I guess.
I just tried the extreme toe in technique on a pair of speakers that I had given up on because they annoyed me too much. They are SEOS waveguide speakers (see pic)
They sound SO MUCH BETTER! The shoutiness is gone. A slight loss of depth to the soundstage but not much else changed.
I am convinced I'm getting too much direct sound right in the 2-6 khz range. Its a problem with a lot speakers that they beam in the worst spot.
I did try the toe in and off axis set up with other speakers and they sounded skewed, as if they were misaligned.
So is this due to the off axis narrowing that regular drivers do? I assume that if the off axis response isn't flat it will sound off.
So then this is the point of constant directivity, you can adjust the speaker and direct vs reflected sound and not get wide swings of the frequency response or the sense that the speaker is misaligned.
I think the balance of direct vs reflected matters a lot, my 2 cents. There's plenty of other things that can cause fatigue as well, but the room does modulate the sound.
Ok but afaik you are still relying on a person to provide perception of it.
The closest thing I've seen to real voodoo is the old "science says" Jedi mind trick, that's used by people like politicians to disable peoples critical thinking skills.
They sound SO MUCH BETTER! The shoutiness is gone. A slight loss of depth to the soundstage but not much else changed.
I am convinced I'm getting too much direct sound right in the 2-6 khz range. Its a problem with a lot speakers that they beam in the worst spot.
I did try the toe in and off axis set up with other speakers and they sounded skewed, as if they were misaligned.
So is this due to the off axis narrowing that regular drivers do? I assume that if the off axis response isn't flat it will sound off.
So then this is the point of constant directivity, you can adjust the speaker and direct vs reflected sound and not get wide swings of the frequency response or the sense that the speaker is misaligned.
I think the balance of direct vs reflected matters a lot, my 2 cents. There's plenty of other things that can cause fatigue as well, but the room does modulate the sound.
Ok but afaik you are still relying on a person to provide perception of it.
Of course people never get too wrapped up in Voodoo and hearsay to actually understand things.
The closest thing I've seen to real voodoo is the old "science says" Jedi mind trick, that's used by people like politicians to disable peoples critical thinking skills.
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Is spaciousness being confused with reverberation here? Maybe I should go back to school
No. Spaciousness arises from predominantly early lateral reflections. Reproduction in most formats does not recreate those reflections as they were in the recording environment and adds a few more of its own.
Some personal experiences - for example JJ was quite frequently on the record with the assertion that he can´t stand listening to records using only pan pots - and some studies as well.
I have to check for some english publications, but remember a german one examining the different perception triggered by intensity and delay time stereophonie while using two differently constructed loudspeakers.
Both of similar linearity but one using Manger loudspeakers (called the more precise loudspeaker, because of nearly ideal step response) and the other a more ordinary type of studio monitor.
Results showed:
-)with the more precise loudspeakers percepted deflection from the center position is larger when using the same level or time differences
-) this difference was larger in the case of delay time stereophony in comparison to the intensity stereophony
-) overall the percepted precision of placement (struggling to remember the correct english term, the german term is Lokalisationsschaerfe) was slightly better when using intensitiy stereophony
-)the interindividual deviations were stronger when using time delay stereophony
Gernemann, A.; Rösner,T.: The Dependence of the Stereophonic Localization on the Sound
Quality of Monitor Speakers, 20 th Tonmeistertagung, pp. 828 - 846 (1998) in German
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So much for "High Fidelity" I guess.
You could not blame him, i´d not call "accurate reproduction" a wrong goal though.
But it is imo an unachievable (mainly) goal given the fact that literally hundredthousands of records exist with little or no information about the production environment.
Some of my own opinions:
I would say early primary lateral reflections, from speakers -> sidewalls -> to you, and which are noticeable may increase the Apparent Source Width (ASW), the soundstage in front of you. -As the mirror source of the speaker is on the other side of the side wall, the sound stage widens but at the same time one also looses some of the recorded location of instruments, pinpointing.
An added impression of spaciousness / making your room sound larger than it physically is, would require the first noticeable reflections to have a timing corresponding to a longer distance than you actually have to sidewalls or ceiling at listening position. This means for wide dispersion speakers that the first reflection area at the side walls should have a) efficient damping say 20+ cm deep insulation with about 5-10 kPa x s / m² as air flow resistance, b) hard angled deflectors towards the back wall, away from listen ing position or c) diffusors. If side walls are close by, say 1,5 m or so, damping may be better than 1D diffusor to avoid the diffusors loobing effect. 2D diffusors ("skyline") have less loobing strengh and could be a choice with nearby side walls. For more directional speaker elements and toed in, I think one can relax a bit on side wall treatments. Spaciousness should be improved too if sound reaching both ears from the same speaker are ”sufficiently” different in strength.
A goal for control room designers is often to decrease the strength of early primary lateral reflections to -20 dB or lower compared to the direct sound (= inaudible) and that the first noticable reflection comes at about 20 ms after the direct sound. -An Initial Signal Delay gap (sometimes called ITD, Initial Time Delay.) This would correspond to an extra path length of about 6 m or 2x3 m back and forth. If this can be accomplished, "closing" the ISD gap at around 20 ms, it would for most domestic rooms be the same as moving your side walls apart and you room appears to be larger than it is. (Or do you have both side wall further away than 3 m / 10 feet? Lucky you in that case.) 1D diffusors placed at the back wall will spread the sound sideways towards side walls, so one can get away with less than 3 m to the backwall, it will also mean the wanted reflections come in at a good angle where the ear is more sensitive to lower strength signals. These would be secondary reflections as the sound wave bounced twice but first (primary) audible reflections for your ears. If one doesn’t want ugly diffusors in the room, bookshelfs with randomly placed books and objects is a good alternative.
For the ceiling, a ”cloud” with insulation at reflection area or an angled deflector is often used. For the floor reflection a thick carpet + a low sofa table could solve the issue. Necessary size of the treatments should be around 3 times larger than the wave length of the offending frequency, -if you want to move around or there is more than 1 person in the sofa.
For envelopment, time delayed surround speakers would be necessary in domestic rooms.
I would say early primary lateral reflections, from speakers -> sidewalls -> to you, and which are noticeable may increase the Apparent Source Width (ASW), the soundstage in front of you. -As the mirror source of the speaker is on the other side of the side wall, the sound stage widens but at the same time one also looses some of the recorded location of instruments, pinpointing.
An added impression of spaciousness / making your room sound larger than it physically is, would require the first noticeable reflections to have a timing corresponding to a longer distance than you actually have to sidewalls or ceiling at listening position. This means for wide dispersion speakers that the first reflection area at the side walls should have a) efficient damping say 20+ cm deep insulation with about 5-10 kPa x s / m² as air flow resistance, b) hard angled deflectors towards the back wall, away from listen ing position or c) diffusors. If side walls are close by, say 1,5 m or so, damping may be better than 1D diffusor to avoid the diffusors loobing effect. 2D diffusors ("skyline") have less loobing strengh and could be a choice with nearby side walls. For more directional speaker elements and toed in, I think one can relax a bit on side wall treatments. Spaciousness should be improved too if sound reaching both ears from the same speaker are ”sufficiently” different in strength.
A goal for control room designers is often to decrease the strength of early primary lateral reflections to -20 dB or lower compared to the direct sound (= inaudible) and that the first noticable reflection comes at about 20 ms after the direct sound. -An Initial Signal Delay gap (sometimes called ITD, Initial Time Delay.) This would correspond to an extra path length of about 6 m or 2x3 m back and forth. If this can be accomplished, "closing" the ISD gap at around 20 ms, it would for most domestic rooms be the same as moving your side walls apart and you room appears to be larger than it is. (Or do you have both side wall further away than 3 m / 10 feet? Lucky you in that case.) 1D diffusors placed at the back wall will spread the sound sideways towards side walls, so one can get away with less than 3 m to the backwall, it will also mean the wanted reflections come in at a good angle where the ear is more sensitive to lower strength signals. These would be secondary reflections as the sound wave bounced twice but first (primary) audible reflections for your ears. If one doesn’t want ugly diffusors in the room, bookshelfs with randomly placed books and objects is a good alternative.
For the ceiling, a ”cloud” with insulation at reflection area or an angled deflector is often used. For the floor reflection a thick carpet + a low sofa table could solve the issue. Necessary size of the treatments should be around 3 times larger than the wave length of the offending frequency, -if you want to move around or there is more than 1 person in the sofa.
For envelopment, time delayed surround speakers would be necessary in domestic rooms.
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Earl,
We always checked in mono to see if anything "disappeared" Plus a few other tricks described here: 6 Easy Ways To Eliminate Phase Cancellation In Your Mixes - Behind The Speakers But mostly a nonissue.
PS. +1 on "Spatial Hearing" by Blauert.
While seemingly off topic, sometimes it is good to know how the sausage is made. The Art of Mixing by David Gibson is worth a few moments of peoples time to at least see the visual representation of imaging: YouTube
If you don't want to know how mixes are made in the studio, don't watch
That is all well and good a conclusion for someone charged with releasing material into the commercial world (putting to one side for the time being that listening to lateral information in mono removes the dipole moment that is the basis of stereo). But for those interested in loudspeaker and/or room design, the question is surely why does it NOT matter?
The deleterious effects of conventional stereo reproduction are immediately obvious to anyone who has heard stereo reproduced in an anechoic environment. Simulating the effects over headphones is similarly instructive for those of us not blessed with anechoic chambers. But the relevant point is the listening room adds something that compensates for the problems of conventional stereo.
And if we are concerned with minimizing the effects of a room on "reproduction fidelity", either by deliberately limiting the loudspeaker directivity or by treating a room with absorption, then this favourable effect will provide a limit to our efforts. My point here has been that using room acoustics to enhance any spatial qualities of the reproduction is not of prime importance if the problems of conventional stereo reproduction are first taken care of (primarily here boosting the attenuated lateral low frequency information). Once this is achieved, loudspeaker directivity can be optimised (say for best imaging) without requiring extra lateral room reflected energy required to obviate the problems of conventional stereo or give some added impression of space.
Somewhat separately, the linked article instructing what is essentially the removal of phase information from stereo channels is every reason why studio created material, as good as it may sound at times and in spite of the considerable artistry involved, is not best adopted as a reference for discussion of stereo reproduction.
Again, Apparent Source Width is a perception of an acoustic source in a first listening environment. It is not a measure of the image properties of a recorded source reproduced over one or more loudspeakers in a second listening environment. Early reflections of loudspeakers are better described as enhancing our perception of the loudspeakers (and their images) rather than the material they are reproducing. In recent decades, significant attention has been directed at minimising the effects of diffraction around loudspeakers for much the same reason that early reflections can also be deleterious.
Boosting lateral low frequency information in stereo channels can also significantly enhance the perception of envelopment without the need for extra speakers.
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