They've missed an opportunity there since lots of horrible things could (probably) still happen between the transformers and the equipment
The common point is that an unexpected test result occurs and in both cases participants are looking for explanations. If there are possible/valid explanation then the experimenter must be taken care of it. Is it like to "blame" something?
It wasn´t my intention, but i should have considered that exactly the missing tone in an internet conversation makes things ambiguous. Please accept my apologies.
Ah, the perils of forums conversation again. It wasn´t meant about your financial interests, but was triggered by your post in the "what kind of evidence do you consider as sufficient" , based on that i wonder why you shouldn´t question that point in case of an unexpected (positive) cable test result.
Nothing wrong with this kind of belief. I have a lot of beliefs myself, for example i believe there is some truth to the hypothesis that we mosty act like Bayesians without realising it.
From my/our experience i´m a bit sceptical that most people can´t hear that because evaluating a multidimensional stimulus is a complex matter, but i belief ( 🙂 ) that most people aren´t interested in it.
Obviously we participate in a forum where audio quality seems to be of interest for a lot of members, so it might be different around here.
And of course - imo like with every other human ability - there will be a spread in abilities. And, again imo like with every other human ability, there will be some spread often/sometimes between the self-evaluation and the real abilities. From my/our experience with controlled listening tests that happens for under and overestimation.
Imo, neglecting the holistic approach (a reproduction system is .... a system) leads to underestimation of the possible problems.
Our hearing sense seems to be quite good in differentiating. Although we are able to measure a lot, we have to closely relate to our hearing sense because that is the final arbiter.
As said in discussions in the past, the reason for this is our inability to reproduce the original soundfields (leaving the binaural method aside for the moment) and the fact that our hearing sense works in a nonlinear manner, creating always things that aren´t really there from cues that were differently interpreted on an individual basis.
Can´t be sure about that (i don´t claim to have noticed all the different cable constructions over the years) but one cable vendor even implemented an optical interconnect some years ago, obviously in an attempt to avoid the mentioned variable.
It didn´t succeed......
I´m sure he did..... and your point is? 😎
Doesn´t yelling one liners from the fence in the way you mainly do qualify for "trolling" too?
@Jakob: I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the cables on the market but not seen one. Plenty of vendors for the transformers in the pro sphere of course, but 'pro' is considered lower grade by some, despite that being how the music is recorded in the first place 🙂.
Now should you put an output transformer at the source or an input transformer at the destination? That'll confuse people. 🙂
Now should you put an output transformer at the source or an input transformer at the destination? That'll confuse people. 🙂
So, you order it, send it to Scott with a prepaid return voucher.
That meets Scott's requirements, all you have to do is the admin.
Are you trying to say you have something against repetition? I find that hard to believe. The difference is what I'm saying is true. DF96 is right, you do have an aggressive tone ("yelling")
Noooooooooo!! It'll create a black hole and we'll all die! (But the audio with be totally magnificent..)
I was going to bow out of this but:
... Engineering and Marketing communicating? Successfully?
Has that ever happened?
Engineering: We need to fix this issue.
Marketing: Will it interfere with this shiny bit that I like?
Engineering: Yeah, we will have to replace that.
Marketing: ... So what you're saying is that we need a meeting with management to reschedule launch and re-take all the nice photos we shot last week of the whatyoucall it, proto-type, was that it?
Engineering: *Sigh*... Yeah, that was a proto-type, as in not a finished product, just for testing purposes to prove the concept.
Marketing: But it's going to have that shiny bit on the end product, yeah?
Engineering: Not really, I-
Marketing: Then it's settled, we'll talk to management alone, probably smart if you get those other people ready for mass production so we can tell the boss you've done good, oh, and please add those nice sleeves to it when you're at it.
Engineering: ... But they have no function!
Marketing: *not hearing a thing* They do look nice don't they!
Engineering: ...*sigh*
Obviously i don´t. But, sorry that imo doesn´t make any sense. You asked if jn didn´t say something before, i confirmed that it i´m sure he did and asked about your point and you responded with the question cited above?!
Quite often it is not, as you tend to present opinion as fact. If you´d more often try to offer arguments for corrobation, i think you´d realise it.
If so, again my apologise; you might be right with "yelling" i was just searching for a verb that might get the different meanings/impressions from your (often) one liners; sometimes i think they are funny, sometimes irritating and sometimes even just stirring the pot.
This may come as a surprise to you, but I don't care what you think of my posts, seriously
I should note here I don't have an issue with Jakob's tone. But I have lot of friends who are German and Engineers. We are all divided by a common language on here 🙂
And let's not forget, a coaxial cable by design, is only truly coaxial when all the signal current going through the core returns by it's shield.
If you have two rca's shielded cables running between a battery powered preamp and a battery powered amp, and one channel pushes bass, the signal returns to the preamp through both shields, not the shield of only the signal. Again, the cables are not working as a coax.
That pair of IC's form a ground loop, magfield can couple via that loop.
Any grounding path alteration can change both how the pre currents return as well as how susceptible the system is to external influence, and to the system's own current draw through the line.
Jn
Ps. This is why I always recommend paying attention to all the cables. And why I recommend using one power distribution strip if possible (with mov's and a common ground for establishing a local bond, this for lightning protection), and where possible, run the signal cables in close proximity to the power cables. While this recommendation seems counterintuitive, it works with good reason.
If you have two rca's shielded cables running between a battery powered preamp and a battery powered amp, and one channel pushes bass, the signal returns to the preamp through both shields, not the shield of only the signal. Again, the cables are not working as a coax.
That pair of IC's form a ground loop, magfield can couple via that loop.
Any grounding path alteration can change both how the pre currents return as well as how susceptible the system is to external influence, and to the system's own current draw through the line.
Jn
Ps. This is why I always recommend paying attention to all the cables. And why I recommend using one power distribution strip if possible (with mov's and a common ground for establishing a local bond, this for lightning protection), and where possible, run the signal cables in close proximity to the power cables. While this recommendation seems counterintuitive, it works with good reason.
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So John,
What is your view on the old 5 pin Din style connection with 2 twisted pairs for signal and overall shield? Shield only connected to case. Maybe Naim were right all along?
What is your view on the old 5 pin Din style connection with 2 twisted pairs for signal and overall shield? Shield only connected to case. Maybe Naim were right all along?
No loop area, sounds like quasi differential (I assume), e field shield as well. Someone there seems to know what they were doing.
Jn
Jn
Now a monoblock, a single rca's source cable to the pre, all three prong.
The shield closes the ground loop. Any time varying magnetic field that tries to go through that loop will generate a voltage around that loop. Remember that the IC core wire also forms a loop, it will see a voltage.
The ground loop current in the shield is rate of change derived, so it is 90 degrees lagging the magfield intensity. That shield current will generate its own magnetic field, and that field is another 90 degrees lagging. The net result is, the shield current is 180 degrees behind the inducing magfield being trapped by the loop. It bucks it, and consequently reduces the voltage that is being generated within the core wire. The ability to shield is as a consequence, quite dependent on how high the conductivity of the shielding is.
Also, remember that if you have a very low resistance ground loop that is bucking magfield intrusion, there can be significant ground loop currents. Most amp and preamp designers do not pay much attention to the current path between the rca's ground and the IEC ground. In the amp, it may seem logical to worry about that, but I guarantee most preamp designers do not design against ground loop coupling of the output signal loop.
I show that relationship in my gallery.
Jn
The shield closes the ground loop. Any time varying magnetic field that tries to go through that loop will generate a voltage around that loop. Remember that the IC core wire also forms a loop, it will see a voltage.
The ground loop current in the shield is rate of change derived, so it is 90 degrees lagging the magfield intensity. That shield current will generate its own magnetic field, and that field is another 90 degrees lagging. The net result is, the shield current is 180 degrees behind the inducing magfield being trapped by the loop. It bucks it, and consequently reduces the voltage that is being generated within the core wire. The ability to shield is as a consequence, quite dependent on how high the conductivity of the shielding is.
Also, remember that if you have a very low resistance ground loop that is bucking magfield intrusion, there can be significant ground loop currents. Most amp and preamp designers do not pay much attention to the current path between the rca's ground and the IEC ground. In the amp, it may seem logical to worry about that, but I guarantee most preamp designers do not design against ground loop coupling of the output signal loop.
I show that relationship in my gallery.
Jn
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