I am looking to build a 3 way using pro drivers, and am pondering some woofers and wonder if anyone has any input. The drivers I am considering are 18" and based on my budget, 4 show up so far on my radar:
- Dayton PA-460 Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer
- Peerless FSL 1830R03 - Peerless FSL-1830R03-08 18" Professional Paper Cone Subwoofer 8 Ohm
- Peerless FSL 1830R06 - Peerless by Tymphany FSL-1830R06-08 18" Professional Paper Cone Subwoofer 8 Ohm
- PRV Audio 18SW1000 - PRV Audio 18SW1000 18" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm
Given that I would like to cross somewhere between 200-300hz, I have to watch out. The R06 Peerless woofer has 9mm Xmax, but it doesn't play very high, topping at about 400hz it appears, which may not go high enough for me.
The only one of these woofers I have seen in use is the Dayton PA460 and had read some good things. The PRV looks alright, and also has a good FS, but not familiar with it, and the Peerless don't have much info beyond what PE provides it seems.
If someone were building a big 3 way, ala poor mans JBL 4345, which woofer would they choose and why? Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance.
- Dayton PA-460 Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer
- Peerless FSL 1830R03 - Peerless FSL-1830R03-08 18" Professional Paper Cone Subwoofer 8 Ohm
- Peerless FSL 1830R06 - Peerless by Tymphany FSL-1830R06-08 18" Professional Paper Cone Subwoofer 8 Ohm
- PRV Audio 18SW1000 - PRV Audio 18SW1000 18" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm
Given that I would like to cross somewhere between 200-300hz, I have to watch out. The R06 Peerless woofer has 9mm Xmax, but it doesn't play very high, topping at about 400hz it appears, which may not go high enough for me.
The only one of these woofers I have seen in use is the Dayton PA460 and had read some good things. The PRV looks alright, and also has a good FS, but not familiar with it, and the Peerless don't have much info beyond what PE provides it seems.
If someone were building a big 3 way, ala poor mans JBL 4345, which woofer would they choose and why? Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance.
..depends on what you are using it for. IF it's monitoring then you don't need super high spl's (high excursion).
IF that's the case then perhaps this one:
http://www.newark.com/mcm-audio-select/55-2954/18-woofer-with-paper-conecloth/dp/80R7005
Here it is for Canadians:
http://canada.newark.com/mcm-audio-...2954&ddkey=http:en-CA/Element14_Canada/search
It has higher motor strength (..better transients), and a Vas that should allow for an enclosure more in-keeping with the volume of the JBL 4345 (..around 9-10 cubic feet with bass reflex venting). Xmax is modest at 4mm's BUT if you don't need ultra loud levels (like sound reinforcement), then it should be fine in a good bass reflex design.
IF that's the case then perhaps this one:
http://www.newark.com/mcm-audio-select/55-2954/18-woofer-with-paper-conecloth/dp/80R7005
Here it is for Canadians:
http://canada.newark.com/mcm-audio-...2954&ddkey=http:en-CA/Element14_Canada/search
It has higher motor strength (..better transients), and a Vas that should allow for an enclosure more in-keeping with the volume of the JBL 4345 (..around 9-10 cubic feet with bass reflex venting). Xmax is modest at 4mm's BUT if you don't need ultra loud levels (like sound reinforcement), then it should be fine in a good bass reflex design.
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Have you considered a real JBL 2245?
It is an excellent driver, actually better suited for domestic use than the JBL replacements that prioritized tour suitability over flat response.
They are available second hand at reasonable prices in America and postal costs shouldn't be too bad for you.
Even with shipment costs to Australia I found a pair at a decent price.
Best wishes
David
For $200 - $215...
=====model 00560400=====
The Peavey LoRider 18 ($215) models well (-F3 ~36Hz, SPL~96db, 8cuft ported). Le=0.87mH from inside + outside windings on the voice coil.
165g cone Qts=0.34 model 00560400
====model 00560600=======
195g cone Qts=0.43 model 00560600 deeper bass BUT >8cuft
======
The JBL 4345 used a 10" midbass in a 4-way design.
A 3-way design using modern 12" midbass like the Eminence KappaLite 3012HO ($135) or Faital 12PR300 can be a better choice with a modern waveguide like the $35 SEOS15 driven by a $63 Peerless DFM2544R00-8 1" compression driver which reaches 18kHz.
=====model 00560400=====
The Peavey LoRider 18 ($215) models well (-F3 ~36Hz, SPL~96db, 8cuft ported). Le=0.87mH from inside + outside windings on the voice coil.
165g cone Qts=0.34 model 00560400
====model 00560600=======
195g cone Qts=0.43 model 00560600 deeper bass BUT >8cuft
======
The JBL 4345 used a 10" midbass in a 4-way design.
A 3-way design using modern 12" midbass like the Eminence KappaLite 3012HO ($135) or Faital 12PR300 can be a better choice with a modern waveguide like the $35 SEOS15 driven by a $63 Peerless DFM2544R00-8 1" compression driver which reaches 18kHz.
Attachments
..please note that his driver selection incorporated drivers as high as $119 US. (..or a little over $150 Canadian.) In other words: $200 x2 US plus shipping is probably way too much. 😉
In the budget grouping for 10" drivers I'd look to the Faital Pro 10FE200 (8 ohm version). It has a higher Qts value - making it ideal for some added midbass in a modest eclosure. This should allow a high-pass behavior/slope and targeted "crossover" below 200 hz (in conjunction with its slightly eleveated lower midrange response).
In the budget grouping for 10" drivers I'd look to the Faital Pro 10FE200 (8 ohm version). It has a higher Qts value - making it ideal for some added midbass in a modest eclosure. This should allow a high-pass behavior/slope and targeted "crossover" below 200 hz (in conjunction with its slightly eleveated lower midrange response).
(1)Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer has good T/S parameters for a musical woofer(Fs=28Hz, Qts=0.33, Mms=170g, Bl=22.). The designers trade a modest Xmax=6mm to allow a small magnet motor to produce <40Hz bass. Strong folded edges steel frame.
(2)Peerless FSL-1830R03-08 is also a good choice, with a slightly higher -F3. The light 155g Mms cone could be responsible for greater cone resonances than the Dayton 18".
=================
The Peerless by Tymphany FSL-1830R06-08 has Qts=0.56 which requires a large box with less air pressure control of the cone. Seems designed for open baffle dipoles. SAME FOR PRV Audio 18SW1000 WITH Qts=0.55 = DIPOLE DESIGN.
=====
The lowest cost tweeter = $43 Dayton DT250T threaded compression driver + $13 Dayton SEOS12 for screw-in CD. The Peerless DFM_2544R00 compression drivers have better reviews, but they require a 4-bolt horn... with less crossover circuit support.
1" Compression Drivers which fit $14 Dayton SEOS-12 screw-in horn. Sale priced are better than the Dayton DT250T.
(1) Probably best total value. The $34 Buy-Out special Selenium D220Ti has been used in many EconoWave designs, and you could leverage the crossover circuits and measured data. To simplify your work, you could copy a proven 2-way EconoWave design using the D220Ti and add your 18" woofer with much less risk/work. Google D220Ti will surprise you.
https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d220ti-1-titanium-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18--299-2320
(2) The $23 sale price at PartsExpress on the Pyle PDS442 would fit your design goals, but has only been used in a few designs.
https://speakerprojects.wordpress.com/2017/08/29/pyle-pds442-and-dayton-dt250p-in-selenium-hm25-25/
(1) Probably best total value. The $34 Buy-Out special Selenium D220Ti has been used in many EconoWave designs, and you could leverage the crossover circuits and measured data. To simplify your work, you could copy a proven 2-way EconoWave design using the D220Ti and add your 18" woofer with much less risk/work. Google D220Ti will surprise you.
https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d220ti-1-titanium-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18--299-2320
(2) The $23 sale price at PartsExpress on the Pyle PDS442 would fit your design goals, but has only been used in a few designs.
https://speakerprojects.wordpress.com/2017/08/29/pyle-pds442-and-dayton-dt250p-in-selenium-hm25-25/
Thanks for the replies folks!
I have Open Baffle 18's and its the main reason I love an 18" woofer... big things just sound right on a big cone.
I would LOVE a JBL 2245 and would pay a premium. I have seen many baskets for sale cheap, but there aren't any original cones easily obtainable, and a good condition 2245 isn't that common around here.
The PA460 has good reviews and think for $90, it's hard to beat. It definitely won't be the be all and end all, but a good way to dabble with some big bass drivers. I find as they go up in price, I get closer to 2245 territory, and that's what I am struggling with ATM.
As for the 10" vs 12" debate, my reasoning was that if I had an 18" that could play up a bit, I would be better served with a smaller mid so that beaming doesn't become as much of an issue as early. This is my only reasoning, as I understand that a 12" would be a bit better, but then beaming is an issue. I guess it depends where I cross to the waveguide/CD.
Once I get up top, I am not sure whether to go with a SEOS or other type waveguide like a PT. Never compared them, nor heard a SEOS.
I have Open Baffle 18's and its the main reason I love an 18" woofer... big things just sound right on a big cone.
I would LOVE a JBL 2245 and would pay a premium. I have seen many baskets for sale cheap, but there aren't any original cones easily obtainable, and a good condition 2245 isn't that common around here.
The PA460 has good reviews and think for $90, it's hard to beat. It definitely won't be the be all and end all, but a good way to dabble with some big bass drivers. I find as they go up in price, I get closer to 2245 territory, and that's what I am struggling with ATM.
As for the 10" vs 12" debate, my reasoning was that if I had an 18" that could play up a bit, I would be better served with a smaller mid so that beaming doesn't become as much of an issue as early. This is my only reasoning, as I understand that a 12" would be a bit better, but then beaming is an issue. I guess it depends where I cross to the waveguide/CD.
Once I get up top, I am not sure whether to go with a SEOS or other type waveguide like a PT. Never compared them, nor heard a SEOS.
Speaker expert Troels Gavensen has designed a JBL 4345-style 4-way (18"+10"+1"+0.5") which might inspire your workshop construction plans.
The-Loudspeaker
Time Alignment: A 12" midbass like the Faital 12PR300 and Eminence KappaLite 3012HO is about 140-145mm deep, with voice coil positioned about 100-110mm behind the front baffle. The SEOS-12 waveguide is 90mm deep, creating a delay of about 105-110mm with a typical compression driver. Some Google study of popular EconoWaves could identify good time-alignment midrange-horn pairs, plus proven crossovers. A slightly deeper quarter-round cut into the baffle mounting of one driver might be enough to close the difference.
Crossover phase shift to compensate for poor time alignment: Troels -
'Do we need to time-align the midrange and horn with steep slopes and a point of crossover around 1.2-1.5 kHz? Where the compression driver acoustically is some 10-15 cm behind the midrange driver? Using CAD software, we can sometimes manage a flat frequency response from connecting the horn with opposite polarity relative to the midrange, where a 4th order filter would normally require the same polarity.'
P.S. compare your Dayton PA460 sims to the Peavey LoRider sims. the Troel's design might inspire you to increase your budget.
The-Loudspeaker
Time Alignment: A 12" midbass like the Faital 12PR300 and Eminence KappaLite 3012HO is about 140-145mm deep, with voice coil positioned about 100-110mm behind the front baffle. The SEOS-12 waveguide is 90mm deep, creating a delay of about 105-110mm with a typical compression driver. Some Google study of popular EconoWaves could identify good time-alignment midrange-horn pairs, plus proven crossovers. A slightly deeper quarter-round cut into the baffle mounting of one driver might be enough to close the difference.
Crossover phase shift to compensate for poor time alignment: Troels -
'Do we need to time-align the midrange and horn with steep slopes and a point of crossover around 1.2-1.5 kHz? Where the compression driver acoustically is some 10-15 cm behind the midrange driver? Using CAD software, we can sometimes manage a flat frequency response from connecting the horn with opposite polarity relative to the midrange, where a 4th order filter would normally require the same polarity.'
P.S. compare your Dayton PA460 sims to the Peavey LoRider sims. the Troel's design might inspire you to increase your budget.
Attachments
..a few things to consider:
-Vas on the Dayton is high, at 402 Liters (..a little over 14 cubic feet). The one I suggested was almost half that at 224 Liters (less than 8 cubic feet), AND it had a stronger motor - making a lower freq. tuning for the bass reflex in a volume MUCH smaller than the Dayton.
-a 10" mid is generally better for several reasons DEPENDING on how you want to crossover and what sort of horn dispersion and lower freq. extension you achieve from the compression driver. Lower Mms alone is usually a nice benefit - typically offering greater clarity in the midrange. As I pointed out before, a higher Qts mid can generate lower midrange/upper bass in a small enclosure (..a "lift" for baffle step compensation allowing for a lower freq. response to crossover lower to the 18" driver), but should still be a bass reflex design with a low tuning freq (..this is done partly for the high-pass behaviour, but mostly for low loss resistance operation of the driver at low excursions (<.5mm) with good physical damping from the port's resistance).
-the horn should not only be chosen for low freq. extension and horizontal directivity, but also vertical directivity. BOTH dispersion patters should be reasonably wide. In a 1" exit format the RCF H100 is IMO the best compromise, though comparativly it's not cheap at about $50 US each. (..and Linesource's recomendation of the peerless compression driver is probably the best match.)
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Dayton Audio PN470-8 18" NEO Series Pro Woofer with 4" Voice Coil 8 Ohm
This is a new 18 from Dayton. Lower VAS, good Fs. Is the voice coil size determinate of the motor size? This has a 4" VC and cast basket. Looks nice.
Troels design looks great but as with all his designs, they aren't cheap. The woofers will cost me more than used 2245s would. I wonder how it compares to an old JBL 43XX speaker overall.
As for the mid. I see sealed being used often and don't often see mids that are BR... is this a common practice? I suppose driver dictates it huh?
This is a new 18 from Dayton. Lower VAS, good Fs. Is the voice coil size determinate of the motor size? This has a 4" VC and cast basket. Looks nice.
Troels design looks great but as with all his designs, they aren't cheap. The woofers will cost me more than used 2245s would. I wonder how it compares to an old JBL 43XX speaker overall.
As for the mid. I see sealed being used often and don't often see mids that are BR... is this a common practice? I suppose driver dictates it huh?
Good pro drivers
I suggest looking for bass and bass mid drivers which have low power compression / high power handling and low Mms / high Bl.
Even although you way not intend to use 1,000 or 2,000 watt amplifiers you can easily hear the benefit of using the best drivers when using 100 or 200 watts.
Note the 5 inch voice coil... Any 18 inch driver using a 3 inch voice coil is not a pro driver, but it is a total waste of money. If you get them free I suggest Ebaying them and putting the money towards real pro drivers such as Beyma, RCF, 18Sound or Precision Devices drivers.
My reference 18 inch driver is this:
http://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD1851-2-DATASHEET-310114.pdf
I use this in a small sealed box, sim attached, crossed over at 80Hz for THX calibration and love the results.
I would not suggest it for open baffle, it will sound amazing, buts its too expensive compared to a pair of Beyma 15 inch which are better suited to open baffle.
https://beyma.com/getpdf.php?pid=SM-115/K
This is a great driver and very low cost compared to the PD / RCF alternatives.
A pair of these each side run in parallel will cover 29Hz up to 800Hz with sublime performance.
Some where on this site I have have posted photos of an open baffle speaker using this 15 inch Beyma, a PD 15 inch (PD 158) and a Manger driver, a three way system using 6 channels of amplifications and a DEQX DSP crossover.
Hope this helps and gives you some ideas.
Cheers
Derek.
I suggest looking for bass and bass mid drivers which have low power compression / high power handling and low Mms / high Bl.
Even although you way not intend to use 1,000 or 2,000 watt amplifiers you can easily hear the benefit of using the best drivers when using 100 or 200 watts.
Note the 5 inch voice coil... Any 18 inch driver using a 3 inch voice coil is not a pro driver, but it is a total waste of money. If you get them free I suggest Ebaying them and putting the money towards real pro drivers such as Beyma, RCF, 18Sound or Precision Devices drivers.
My reference 18 inch driver is this:
http://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD1851-2-DATASHEET-310114.pdf
I use this in a small sealed box, sim attached, crossed over at 80Hz for THX calibration and love the results.
I would not suggest it for open baffle, it will sound amazing, buts its too expensive compared to a pair of Beyma 15 inch which are better suited to open baffle.
https://beyma.com/getpdf.php?pid=SM-115/K
This is a great driver and very low cost compared to the PD / RCF alternatives.
A pair of these each side run in parallel will cover 29Hz up to 800Hz with sublime performance.
Some where on this site I have have posted photos of an open baffle speaker using this 15 inch Beyma, a PD 15 inch (PD 158) and a Manger driver, a three way system using 6 channels of amplifications and a DEQX DSP crossover.
Hope this helps and gives you some ideas.
Cheers
Derek.
At moderate spl's I suspect most differences would be down to the T/S param.s of the driver in relation to the cabinet volume and vent tuning freq.. Because it's as expensive as it is, I tend to wonder why (vs a quality used JBL nearing the same price).
Large mid.s are often sealed, if for no other reason than having an easier box design (..where you have to be concerned with the pipe-resonance going higher in freq. than intended - into the midrange, with a typical bass reflex tuning freq.).
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There is a large inaccuracy in your quoting of me. I never said the new Dayton was expensive. I said that about the driver Troels had spec'd for his big monitors ($620 Euro). The new Daytons ($180us) are new since thread started and not the same as the one in the OP ($90 USD).
As for the one bloke suggesting OB speakers, I feel y'all, but i am looking for BOX speakers... already have an OB setup 😉
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..it was on purpose. 😉
The new Daytons are by comparison expensive to the most expensive driver you've previously listed ($180 vs $119). Enough so that a good used JBL driver would only cost a small percentage (about 11%) more than the new Daytons (at around $200).
It's at that point where I'd ask: "why look at the new Daytons at all?" (..that's the point I was trying to make.) 😱
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If you are on a fixed budget, spending more on a great midrange would be worth consideration. The midrange must be sealed to get the best transient and phase response. You can study tapered rear midrange panel bracing to both reduce resonances and add strength.
The PN470-8 is designed for ProAudio 40-45Hz bass in a 4-6cuft cabinet. In a JBL 4345 style cabinet of 8cuft volume, the Dayton PN470-8 will produce -F3=37Hz. The SPL data shows adequate 300Hz frequency extension for a Mms=211g. You should model both LR2 and LR4 crossover circuits. The LR4 circuit will both reduce the large voice coil resonance at 32Hz, and also isolate the midrange driver from the woofer cone bumps and breakup. You can also sim LR2 circuit plus an LRC filter to control the 130-ohm voice coil resonance.
P.S. I mentioned the Troels JBL 4345 just for the cabinet construction work.
The PN470-8 is designed for ProAudio 40-45Hz bass in a 4-6cuft cabinet. In a JBL 4345 style cabinet of 8cuft volume, the Dayton PN470-8 will produce -F3=37Hz. The SPL data shows adequate 300Hz frequency extension for a Mms=211g. You should model both LR2 and LR4 crossover circuits. The LR4 circuit will both reduce the large voice coil resonance at 32Hz, and also isolate the midrange driver from the woofer cone bumps and breakup. You can also sim LR2 circuit plus an LRC filter to control the 130-ohm voice coil resonance.
P.S. I mentioned the Troels JBL 4345 just for the cabinet construction work.
There's one in Swap Meet now for $150.
Take a chance to find another? it was easier a while back as the 2245 was replaced with newer drivers but they still come up now and then.
Best wishes
David
Bear in mind the 2245 has xmax of about 9mm, which is ample for an 18, but xlim is only about 13mm, so they must not be overdriven. Otherwise, still a fine driver.
I suspect the 2245 specifications are conservative.
The 2245 is quite an old driver, the specs reflect the tech of the period and don't seem to have been updated.
But materials have improved since then and I assume that some of the improvements have been incorporated into later 2245s as production line updates, like better modern adhesives for instance.
I know the cone has been updated several times, not sure about the spider.
I don't intend to push mine to the limit just to find out😉
But yes, it's less robust than its replacements.
Which is a perfect opportunity for DIYers - second hand 2245s are cheap(ish) because they are 'obsolete' but are excellent for domestic use, the replacements are more suited for deployment in massive arrays that couple to flatten the very low frequency response.
Best wishes
David
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