Sorry Ed (slipped by 🙂), but 3.24W is still meager. And yes the voltage out of the amp into the reactive load is what really matters, I think folks just specify PA requirements for this application based mainly on voltage out capabilities (though it gets tough at the highs).
I was just explaining the thought processes (if any) of the 8-legs is bad brigade 😱
Jan
Silver wire is problematic. I have not found an alternate source of silver wire that sounds 'acceptable' except for the silver wire used by Bear and Bob Crump back 20 years ago. Bear's wire, as I like to call it, has been unavailable for about a decade and I could kick myself for not buying more. I have made A-B comparisons of CTC Blowtorch amps made with the 'Bear' wire and the best copper interconnect that I could find and there was a sonic difference between the two preamps because of this. Copper always sounded softer, more listenable, but not as 'articulate' or 'up front' compared to the best 'Bear' wire that was also 'broken in' over several weeks, AND 'directionalized'. Only Bob Crump went through this procedure to make the Blowtorch preamps, and happily I still own one.
Normal silver will usually sound 'bright' or 'edgy' all else being equal, so why bother?
Normal silver will usually sound 'bright' or 'edgy' all else being equal, so why bother?
What is the name of your own brigade? "8-legs is bad brigade" fighter squad ?
I never found any audible difference between two components who was not accompanied by a measurements difference.
What about Silver VS Copper and what physical property of silver could justify any difference in level, bandwidth, phase, whatever ?
Of course, when it is about moving coil of speakers, there is differences, because DC resistance /mass differ due to the physical properties ofthe two metals. But, for a 20cm wire before a 10K ohm preamp ? Copper and silver are so close in conductivity !
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Distortion may be introduced at interfaces between different materials, especially when there are imperfections in solder joints, corrosion, dissimilar metals, etc.
If there are any audible differences between silver and copper wires, more likely the result from what we would consider to be small defects in connections, and not something arising from electron drift in wire segments of homogeneous composition.
Therefore, attributing differences in sound, even if real, to wire itself rather than interconnections might be a mistake.
Also, we know that perception described as "bright or edgy" is often associated with odd-order harmonic distortion. Sometimes small amounts of odd-order harmonics are also perceived as sounding more detailed. In cases where one has a knob to dial in various amounts of odd-order distortion some of both effects can be heard. It can sound more detailed in a way, yet at the same time a bit bright or edgy, so pick how much you want.
The problem with sorting out if something like silver wire produces any audible effect is that it would require building duplicate circuits differing only in wire type. If great care is taken in doing that so that things like all connections are verified to be good, then probably no audible or measurable difference.
So, how would one go about making two identical, but slightly defective circuits, only differing in wire type, so that claims of audibility could be confirmed with measurments?
So, how would one go about making two identical, but slightly defective circuits, only differing in wire type, so that claims of audibility could be confirmed with measurments?
You got it backwards. Start point: there is no plausible argument why an amp with silver or copper wire would have an audible difference. Next: some guru swears there is an audible difference. Next: implore said guru to back up with facts, figures, controlled tests, etc. Expected outcome: guru either silence as a grave, or states 'buit I clearly heard it'.
There, I just compiled the contents of the next 12 pages of posts.
Don't mention it.
Jan
You're too new here to know. Come back next year or read the previous few 1000 pages.
Jan
No, it is just gequirlte Scheiße, that's what it is. A piece of sympathetic magic,
like cherry juice helps sanguification, rhino horns help against erectile dysfunction
or needles in a voodoo puppet create pain in somebodies back side.
So copper sounds warm, with coloration, silver sounds bright and Pb is dull.
High priests of a low cult.
And trying to find excuses that this could happen as a collateral damage from
secondary effects is not going to help.
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Just to stir the pot. If for some reason the wire were to mechanically interact with the signal ( acoustic or electromagnetically) the stiffness of the wire could interact with the signal modulation.
If someone could actually demo this effect it would help sell wire. Would it be audible if real ??? I would not invest time in this myself.
If someone could actually demo this effect it would help sell wire. Would it be audible if real ??? I would not invest time in this myself.
A few thoughts in response:
Understood.
Suppose, a trained, talented, or mistaken listener perceives something. But, not in isolation, maybe other people independently report the same thing. Often when things like that happen at first people scoff and say impossible. Sometimes if the thing is ever seriously investigated, some explanation is found by application of the scientific method. In some cases the people who scoffed are astonished, or maybe they can never accept the results. This is seen more often in medicine than in engineering, of course. But, how we measure and how some brains listen are not equally sensitive to the same things. If there is a mistake on the part of engineers, more often it has to do with misunderstanding humans, not electrons. That part is kind of like with doctors and medicine.
JC says only one guy who used a certain type of wire built the best sounding preamps. If there is a mistake in that description, it is probably attributing any difference in sound to what seems salient in the mind: the wire. What about the solder this guy used, acid core? Silver solder? What else may have been different? Did he overheat the capacitors while soldering? Who knows? We only know about wire, so the brain says that must be the only possible explanation.
But getting back to a description of bright, edgy, or detailed, if multiple people independently come up with similar descriptions, there is probably something measurable going on. We may be looking at the wrong things to find it, or we may be measuring different copies of the amplifier.
Later on, once people get it in their heads one preamp sounds different with different wire, after that testing has to be done somehow blind. It should be some kind of blind method listeners can be comfortable with. Not necessarily foobar, or an ABX switching gizmo. But, maybe an ABX switching gizmo combined with ability of looping short sections of sound would work better. I would bet if we tried it we would see improved testing scores from some people.
If we can get to the point where we can use humans as more reliable sensors, kind of like JBL is doing, but even better, then we can have a better idea of what reports are worth effort to investigate. Finding a better, more comfortable way for humans to do blind testing would be a big step in the right direction. If we tried, it might not actually be very hard.
Let's get it straight, 3 legs good 8 legs bad, if you remember your modern lit quite an appropriate slogan.
Agreed, maybe acoustical motion of wire could modulate some nonlinear mechanism at connection points, or maybe modulate coupling of wires with local electromagnetic fields. Again, if some listeners are hearing something real at least some of the time, then there has to be some physical explanation and it should be measurable. Sorting out true reports from mistaken reports would potentially still be a big problem, though. That could be the hardest problem to overcome.
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