Funniest snake oil theories

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#11,044
the relative phase of harmonics to fundamentals is another place this can be heard

ex: a sawtooth wave can have leading or lagging fast edge

while harmonics are usually said to be responsible for 'timbre', for some cases a change of the phase of the harmonic relative to the fundamental can give an impression of pitch change
 
#11,045
Very interesting, the example of the sawtooth, the harmonic content would be the same when inverted but relative timing (phase) of them would change? I listen to a lot a brass so, lots of harmonic content. I'm going to have to experiment. How, though, can one tell if the recording is the correct phase?
 
#11,047
Back on the topic of snake oil products and theories (maybe this has been covered here before?):

Shun Mook Audio, Inc.
I find the feedback concept in the record clamp to be most interesting. Now, I know record weights and clamps themselves aren't snake oil and can be helpful - and heard. It's just the concept of how this one works and why it can fetch upwards of $3,000US...for a record clamp! I noticed one on Audiogon today.

The pendulum concept also makes for fun reading given the discussion of dowsing on this thread. At least they start out with full disclosure: "This device can be a bit far out for some user." [sic] The application notes are worth a read: http://www.shunmook.com/userinfo/Shun Mook Mpingo Pendulum Application Notes.pdf

I'm also amused by the idea that resonance, which many work hard to reduce, is the goal with many of these "resonator" products. But it's apparently in the context of feedback resonance.
 
#11,048
Absolute polarity of musical sources has been a relatively recent effect that has been addressed. In the old days, like more than 40 years ago, absolute polarity was a 'dice roll' with records and tapes, because it was ignored. Further back, audio experts insisted that the ear was 'phase deaf' and this was known as: 'Ohm's Law of Acoustics' for many decades. Later research by Bell Labs and others showed that the ear WAS insensitive to some phase shift mechanisms, but not ALL. Time displacement between speaker drivers, for instance was potentially audible, but phase shifting through a analog phase shift circuit might not be, even if the waveform was totally changed in appearance.
This is where we were at about 40 years ago, and that was when 'absolute polarity' was first significantly addressed.
Many people were found to be relatively sensitive to absolute polarity and in many cases they would even mark their vinyl or CD sources as which polarity was 'better' so they could adjust for it before playing the selection. Some hi end manufacturers added a 'polarity' switch to their preamps to make this adjustment easier. Even Dr. Lipshitz became an advocate for absolute polarity, and worked hard to make it acceptable to others with a successful double-blind test.
I personally don't find it very important, but that is just me.
 
#11,050
I have to comment that I once thought very little of 'Shun Mook' about 15 years ago, because its claims were substantial and its 'technology' was so alien to me. More like Zen, than science.
However, I attended a demonstration by Shun Mook at a CES and I was amazed, as well as the others with me as to how they could change the sound with these 'alien' devices. I then became an 'acceptor' of their products. I have never owned any, but I can't deny their success.
This is unlike many here who have never listened to them, is darn sure that they have nothing of value in them, and they must be a bunch of crooks, etc.
This attitude reminds me of an annoying catcall that I heard in an audience of a July 4 celebration where some young guy (in his 20's) kept yelling 'Rock and roll' in front of a Russian orchestra that was to do the usual stuff like the 1812 Overture, etc. He thought it funny, but it was just demeaning and low class to show his ignorance in this way, and annoying to the rest of us. But then he was just making fun of something he knew nothing about, even though it was his choice to be in the audience. That is what I am reminded of here.
 
#11,051
I only detect phase differences at crossover frequencies.
If you have a digital delay adjustment on a subwoofer, for example, its very easy to detect, even channel to channel.
Click to expand...

That's likely because changing the phase of one of two drivers on either side of a crossover frequency will usually dramatically change the frequency response. For instance, if the drivers are in-phase at the crossover frequencies, their amplitude adds there (in dB terms, increases 6dB if they were equal amplitude there). But if one is then phase inverted, their amplitudes cancel -- in dB terms, -infinity dB at the crossover frequency if they were exactly equal.
 
#11,052
john curl said:
I have to comment that I once thought very little of 'Shun Mook' about 15 years ago, because its claims were substantial and its 'technology' was so alien to me. More like Zen, than science.
However, I attended a demonstration by Shun Mook at a CES and I was amazed, as well as the others with me as to how they could change the sound with these 'alien' devices. I then became an 'acceptor' of their products. I have never owned any, but I can't deny their success.
This is unlike many here who have never listened to them, is darn sure that they have nothing of value in them, and they must be a bunch of crooks, etc.
This attitude reminds me of an annoying catcall that I heard in an audience of a July 4 celebration where some young guy (in his 20's) kept yelling 'Rock and roll' in front of a Russian orchestra that was to do the usual stuff like the 1812 Overture, etc. He thought it funny, but it was just demeaning and low class to show his ignorance in this way, and annoying to the rest of us. But then he was just making fun of something he knew nothing about, even though it was his choice to be in the audience. That is what I am reminded of here.
Click to expand...

Not only are you endorsing complete nonsense your example is totally off base. The kid was expressing his taste in art not debunking complete BS. There's a huge difference. This post has eliminated the small amount of respect I had left for you. Stop designing, there's a career for you in marketing.
 
#11,053
cbdb, I don't really care that you have 'lost respect' for me. But, the very idea that I might have a career in marketing is laughable. My own employers often wince at my direct statements about my own designs. I have to accept 'marketing' as a necessary component to making a successful business, but I have always been lousy at it.
 
#11,054
Okay. Time to codify this discussion:

10 Ob_1$ = "This product is snake oil."
20 Sub_1$ = "No it isn't - I've tried it, and it works."
20 Ob_2$ = "Your ears/brain are playing tricks on you."
30 Sub_2$ = "You can't knock it if you haven't tried it."
40 PRINT Ob_1$
50 PRINT Sub_1$
60 PRINT Ob_2$
70 PRINT Sub_2$
80 GOTO 40

That about right?

But seriously, I have a question to to those of you who apparently trust your ears as infallible arbiters of whether or not these products are beneficial to good sound.

Your frequent response to the doubters is essentially line 30 above. You implore us to just trust our ears, the same way you trust yours. You've been presented with a fairly large pile of evidence as to why this particular trust is likely not warranted, not by you, not by us. And yet you repeat your advice, over and over: "Just try it," meaning, "Just trust your ears."

My question: Do you simply discount all the studies & tests that show how fickle, variable, and downright undependable our senses can be, even on a good day? How do you reconcile this body of information with your "trust your ears" approach to products such as vinyl demagnetizers etc? Are these studies your "snake oil?"

This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious. And if the above sounds in any way accusing or condescending, I apologize - that's not my intent. It's just that for me, this discussion stopped being about audio gear a lo-ong time ago, and is now firmly planted in the realm of human physiology/psychology. So I'm trying to come at it from a somewhat different angle, in my own stumbling manner.

- Jim
 
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#11,055
bwaslo said:
That's likely because changing the phase of one of two drivers on either side of a crossover frequency will usually dramatically change the frequency response. For instance, if the drivers are in-phase at the crossover frequencies, their amplitude adds there (in dB terms, increases 6dB if they were equal amplitude there). But if one is then phase inverted, their amplitudes cancel -- in dB terms, -infinity dB at the crossover frequency if they were exactly equal.
Click to expand...

Yes. That's the purpose of the digital delay adjustment on the multichannel preamplifier. To time align each satellite with a subwoofer.
The effects of even a few milliseconds are easily audible as cancellations or reinforcement. I adjust mine running full range to time align each channel with a sub, then direct each channels bass to the sub after adjusting phase is finished. The effect is always cleaner sound, with subjectively louder playback at a lower volume setting.
 
#11,056
Jim the Oldbie said:
Okay. Time to codify this discussion:

10 Ob_1$ = "This product is snake oil."
20 Sub_1$ = "No it isn't - I've tried it, and it works."
20 Ob_2$ = "Your ears/brain are playing tricks on you."
30 Sub_2$ = "You can't knock it if you haven't tried it."
40 PRINT Ob_1$
50 PRINT Sub_1$
60 PRINT Ob_2$
70 PRINT Sub_2$
80 GOTO 40

That about right?
---- Snip ---
Click to expand...


@echo off
cls
😛rint
echo.
echo This product is snake oil.
echo No it isn't - I've tried it, and it works.
echo Your ears/brain are playing tricks on you.
echo You can't knock it if you haven't tried it.
echo.
pause
goto Print

-----

#include <stdio.h>

main()

infinite_loop:
{
printf("This product is snake oil.\n");
printf("No it isn't - I've tried it, and it works.\n");
printf("Your ears/brain are playing tricks on you\n");
printf("You can't knock it if you haven't tried it\n");
}

goto infinite_loop;
 
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#11,058
john curl said:
I have to comment that I once thought very little of 'Shun Mook' about 15 years ago, because its claims were substantial and its 'technology' was so alien to me. More like Zen, than science.
However, I attended a demonstration by Shun Mook at a CES and I was amazed, as well as the others with me as to how they could change the sound with these 'alien' devices. I then became an 'acceptor' of their products. I have never owned any, but I can't deny their success.
This is unlike many here who have never listened to them, is darn sure that they have nothing of value in them, and they must be a bunch of crooks, etc.
This attitude reminds me of an annoying catcall that I heard in an audience of a July 4 celebration where some young guy (in his 20's) kept yelling 'Rock and roll' in front of a Russian orchestra that was to do the usual stuff like the 1812 Overture, etc. He thought it funny, but it was just demeaning and low class to show his ignorance in this way, and annoying to the rest of us. But then he was just making fun of something he knew nothing about, even though it was his choice to be in the audience. That is what I am reminded of here.
Click to expand...


There is no "technology" here whatsoever! It is all poorly elucidated doublespeak. Here is the quote at their website for this "clamp" some speak so highly of..."This extra heavy ebony root...has a unique power...The vibration generated by the diamond style in the vinyl besides inducing an electroflux through the phono-cartridge also excites the ebony molecules, causing it to resonate.

First off, what is this "unique ""power""? of Ebony wood? Yes, they are trying to make it "extra-special" by saying, it is the "root" of an ebony tree...submerged in tropical waters...must be "healing waters" huh?
No description of these "powers".

I will ignore the misspelling, using "STYLE" where I believe they wanted "STYLUS"...Translator programs only work so far..I won't even try the grammar, again poor translators.

And just what is an "ELECTROFLUX"?...no such word, scientific or slang.

Such a minute possible vibrational energies won't even begin to resonate a chunk of Ebony, root portion not withstanding.

-------------------------------------------------------------Rick.........

So much BS, so little time & patience to write about it...
 
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