Your ears aren't sensitive to absolute phase directly. Rarefaction or compression, they care not. Perhaps some secondary effects exist within a replay chain that may be audible.
Is a phase reversal audible?
You can train yourself to hear it some might have to work at it more. Clearly I'm assuming this was not done by ear and the tracks ARE actually in inverse phase.
Anyone have a Sony SACD I can only find issues mentioned with multi-channel mixing which is not the same thing?
Your ears aren't sensitive to absolute phase directly. Rarefaction or compression, they care not. Perhaps some secondary effects exist within a replay chain that may be audible.
wrong, nerve impulses are generated for only one direction of hair cell bending giving our ears an 'absolute phase' ability at lower frequencies
above a few kHz the nerve discharge pulse rate limits phase detection
Audio Asylum Thread Printer
There is actually not much in AES and ASA. In a nutshell, polarity inversion is audible, yes, with selected signals, but overall not excessively important.
Below a list of papers and articles I have in my archive. If interested, mail me for a copy.
Klaus
Craig et al., “Effect of Phase on the Quality of a Two-Component Tone”, J. of the Acoustical Society of America 1962, p.1752
Greiner et al., “Observations on the Audibility of Acoustic Polarity”, J. of the Audio Engineering Society 1994, p.245; Comments, JAES 1995, p.147
“While polarity inversion is not easily heard with normal complex musical program material, as our large-scale listening tests showed, it is audible in many select and simplified musical settings. Thus it would seem sensible to keep track of polarity and to play the signal back with the correct polarity to ensure the most accurate reproduction of the original acoustic waveform.”
Greiner et al., “A quest for the audibility of polarity”, Audio Magazine, Dec. 1993, p.40
Heyser, “Polarity convention”, Audio Magazine, Sept. 1979, p.18
Hilliard, “Notes on How Phase and Delay Distortions Affect the Quality of Speech, Music and Sound Effects”, IEEE Transactions on Audio, March-April 1964, p.23
Johnsen, “Proofs of an Absolute Polarity”, Audio Engineering Society paper 3169 (1991)
Knight, “Report of an Ad hoc meeting on the formation of an AES technical committee on audio polarity”, JAES 1981, p.528
Lipshitz et al., “On the Audibility of Midrange Phase Distortion in Audio Systems”, JAES 1982, p.580; Comments, JAES 1983, p.447
“The important point is that there is a well-established mechanism in the inner ear for detecting waveform asymmetries and hence polarity reversal of asymmetric signals. What is perhaps surprising is how subtle this effect generally appears to be on music and speech. As the above-mentioned experiment [13] indicates however, it is an audible factor, and should be taken into account when performing comparisons of audio components [15], [19], [20] -- acoustic polarity should be maintained.”
Long, “Polarity in absolute terms”, Audio Magazine, Aug. 1989, p.14 [about Clark Johnsen’s book “The Wood effect”]
Long, “Upside down – Find out whether you can hear polarity inversion ”, Audio Magazine, July 1996, p.35
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I've heard it suggested that for proper reproduction of attack, say, of a drum strike, phase is important, but isn't that initial "hit" at a high frequency?
Typically you would not invert the title or other metadata or necessarily copy all of it. I have used .wav files for carrying instrumentation data since there are many cheap USB devices around and have never had an instance of inversion.
Of course.
Usually, a checksum implies calculating a N+1th byte based on the N bytes in the file, then appending the byte to the file, which becomes of length N+1. The receiver calculates the same checksum over all N+1 bytes and the result must be zero, or else...
For longitudinal parity check, this is as simple as XORing all bytes in the file and put the result in the N+1 byte. Then, since A^A=0, XORing all N+1 bytes is zero. OTOH, ~A^~B=A^B (inversion absorption), so inverting all N+1 bytes the verification still delivers a "good" zero.
So we need to distinguish the case in which the N+1 bytes are all inverted, that would pass, but only the first inverted N bytes would calculate a different checksum than the non-inverted bytes.
Other checksum algorithms are invariant against a 2's complement of the N bytes, etc... there are a few that have no known invariance.
Is a phase reversal audible?
Very much so if your system meets certain specifications. As a matter of fact I catch it most of the time in about within one minute of a track. I also have a table of brands and their most common polarity.
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I've heard it suggested that for proper reproduction of attack, say, of a drum strike, phase is important, but isn't that initial "hit" at a high frequency?
Depends. Drumsticks should be held loosely and thrown into the head, which deflects inward, then rebounds launching the stick in the opposite direction where it is caught. That's not the only way, but it's best for the player's wrists and produces the most resonant tone. Depending on things like drum head tension, mass, stick mass, etc., there can be a chest thumping impulse.
Interestingly, your post above can be read almost entirely as a description of a drummer throwing one of his sticks at an audience member.
Just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
Agreed.Very much so if your system meets certain specifications. As a matter of fact I catch it most of the time in about within one minute of a track. I also have a table of brands and their most common polarity.
I also have albums where the top 40 hit track is in one polarity, and the rest of the tracks are inverted wrt the hit track, I expect due to mastering in a different studio.
Live, narration and nature sounds recordings are critical for correct pb polarity.
Multi track/close mic'd studio recordings can have individual instruments/vocals recorded in undefined/random polarity causing confusion.....pb polarity can be optimised for vocal or individual instruments but not the complete recording.
Single way loudspeakers are more revealling of correct pb polarity......phase rotations in multiway loudspeakers can cause further confusion.
Dan.
The initial pulse of percussion sounds eg kick drum is higher amplitude than the following decaying oscillations....this is one audible diffrentiator of pb acoustic polarity.wrong, nerve impulses are generated for only one direction of hair cell bending giving our ears an 'absolute phase' ability at lower frequencies.....
Vocals/narration played back in inverted polarity sounds 'wrong' and loses intelligibility.
Dan.
Interestingly, your post above can be read almost entirely as a description of a drummer throwing one of his sticks at an audience member.
Just sayin'.
Right, hopefully it's at least to musical effect, and lands smack dab in the pocket. Not saying which one. 🙂
The initial pulse of percussion sounds eg kick drum is higher amplitude than the following decaying oscillations....this is one audible diffrentiator of pb acoustic polarity.wrong, nerve impulses are generated for only one direction of hair cell bending giving our ears an 'absolute phase' ability at lower frequencies.....
Vocals/narration played back in inverted polarity sounds 'wrong' and loses intelligibility.
Dan.
True, I have used single range speakers for a very long time, but many other systems I have listened to are also quite polarity correctness revealing. Some times I walk into a place and just ask “wonder what this would sound like if you reverse the polarity?”, they are often amazed when they do. Fast decay is actually a key characteristic of a speaker system to hear this.
The initial pulse of percussion sounds eg kick drum is higher amplitude than the following decaying oscillations....this is one audible diffrentiator of pb acoustic polarity.
Vocals/narration played back in inverted polarity sounds 'wrong' and loses intelligibility.
Dan.
nice BS.
now put the mic from other side of membrane..
Wouldn't the phase then change with distance?wrong, nerve impulses are generated for only one direction of hair cell bending giving our ears an 'absolute phase' ability at lower frequencies
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Wouldn't the phase then change with distance?
It may help to recall that phase shift and inversion are two different things, although sometimes they may be loosely treated as synonyms. Phase inversion - Wikipedia
Suppose there is a kick drum sound playing from a loudspeaker, and that initially as the drum is played or struck, the driver cone moves outward towards the listener. That's the initial impulse that would have the effect of increasing the pressure in a small room. That would be different than if the initial impulse was a lowering of pressure in the room due to the speaker cone moving inward away from the listener.
One could also think about what happens, say, in a large outdoor space. As the kick drum in a recording is initially struck, suppose a speaker cone again moves outward. A wave is launched and propagates toward listeners at various distances from the loudspeaker. As the wavefront reaches listeners, pressure initially increases forcing the eardrums inward. That happens at different times for listeners at different distances, but initial wavefront is always an increase in pressure rather than a reduction in pressure in this case.
If the initial speaker cone movement had been inward, then arrival of the initial kick drum wavefront would be associated with a reduction of pressure and outward motion of the eardrum for each listener.
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I get that, and it makes sense. I was asking in relation to the post about absolute phase being audible at lower frequencies
I get that, and it makes sense. I was asking in relation to the post about absolute phase being audible at lower frequencies
Okay, what if we empirically find that absolute phase (i.e. pressure increase at first wavefront arrival vs pressure decrease at first arrival), is audible at low frequencies. How could that wavefront arrival pressure sequence, one way or the other, be different at different distances? We already agreed the pressure sequence should be the same for all listeners. isn't that the same as saying absolute phase is the same for all listeners, regardless of distance?
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